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[Music]

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yeah

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welcome back to life mma in the nba i'm

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your host dj san marco here on a i want

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to say it's thursday night normally

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record on tuesday but for this man we're

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going to change things up we're going to

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adjust our schedule we're going to do

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what we need to do so uh as i said my

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name is dj san marco my co-host is uh

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nathan at await soul on ufo twitter

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and we're very very happy tonight

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to welcome in

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the man himself party people put your

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hands together

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hey guys happy to be here

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good to have you with us

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yes sir exo academia so um so you know i

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i sort of led the dance on the last

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podcast xo and in fact uh nathan shushed

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me up because you know we were talking

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about right before you came on

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what's that

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we were talking about the

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how do i say this the basically the

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movements of tic tac

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in the framer

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um the fraver engagement with it if you

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will

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you could ascribe human

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sort of patterns to the way that it

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acted and the person who brought that

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out is none other than nathan but he's

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not going to let me start with that so i

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guess we're going to talk about it later

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yeah that'll be a future show

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all right excellent but think about that

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one were those

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could you ascribe a human behavior

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pattern to what the way that uh the the

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specific things that that that uh craft

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did and i don't want to call it an

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aircraft but that craft

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yeah definitely food for thought right

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yeah so anyway

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nathan take it away brother awesome so

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yeah we are so

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glad and grateful to have with us exo

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academian

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who is the host of the point of

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convergence podcast

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unique show within the world of ufology

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this is a show that started back i think

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in late uh december

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of 2020

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there are over 30 episodes uh in this

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show

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it's incredibly well researched

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incredibly organized every little show

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is like a mini lecture you're getting

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like a graduate class in some aspect of

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the phenomenon covering topics recording

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in progress of reality uh recording uh

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talking about experiencers contact

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modalities such as ce5

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you do book reviews discussions remote

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viewing simulation hypotheses a whole

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kind of gamut of topics uh it's

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recording stopped sorry

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it's absolutely great to have you on

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with us and and to chat with you today

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guys i'm happy to be here

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awesome well as we talked with you in

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advance of the show uh we talked about

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wanting to to go over religion and sort

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of the intersectionality

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of religion with aspects

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of the phenomenon and i wanted to start

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out the show if you're willing to talk a

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little bit about this to

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to to share with us some of your own

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kind of journey uh not necessarily with

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the phenomena specifically although i

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certainly want the listeners to hear

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that uh but your background with uh

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religion or spirituality or religious

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studies can you speak a little bit to

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that for us

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yeah sure and uh i'm happy to address

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that actually because i think it's a big

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piece in how i approach the ufo

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phenomenon and just how i approach life

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in general it's one of those things

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that's so

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um

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central to who i am that it

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it touches on everything uh for me um

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and i also would say that i i have felt

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this kind of like really um

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strange abstract and yet somehow

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semi-direct feeling of intervention in

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my life and uh

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kind of like a guided path but always

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sort of just just behind the hills kind

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of thing you know like you just catch a

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hint of flight above the hills in other

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words

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i can never put my finger on it but i

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just sometimes look back at the level of

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synchronicity and it feels that way

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sometimes um but to give you a brief

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background

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so i would say as a

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a teenager i was interested in

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spirituality

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um then kind of went in a fairly

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conservative band uh had some

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you know sort of crazy spiritual

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experiences and ended up uh becoming an

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evangelical christian

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um and then actually pursued uh even

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biblical studies and religious studies

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at the university level

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um

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and then

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that kind of became more and more um

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abstract in itself like in other words i

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would take the the core of the

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experiences i would have but i would

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move further and further away from these

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direct

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dogmatic interpretations of the

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experiences i was having

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and as i studied

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biblical and religious history and

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started studying some eastern religions

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and whatnot i began to see how there's

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this tendency

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i remember some of us used to talk about

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it

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myth monument and the idea is that you

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have some sort of crazy experience that

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somebody has with something spiritual or

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phenomenological or whatever

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and they gather a bunch of people around

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them because they've had this crazy

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experience and they're totally motivated

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by it

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that creates a myth

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and then eventually you get to a third

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stage where it becomes a monument where

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at that point you dogmatize the entire

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thing you start writing books about it

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you

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try and

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categorize and lock into boxes how it's

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supposed to work so that it becomes safe

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and tame and so i noticed that

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through the life of jesus and then how

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the church kind of went from there

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i looked at some of the differences

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between sort of eastern orthodoxy

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and how evangelicals would look at

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things and remarkable differences you

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know things like

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eastern orthodox christians would

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actually pray for the conversion of

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satan

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which uh an evangelical it just would

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never occur to them because there's this

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very much block like thinking that

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god is always good 100

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satan is always evil 100 they're like

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these two you know opposite ends of the

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spectrum in in life and reality

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and that's just the way it is whereas

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eastern orthodox people who are also

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christians saw it very very differently

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so i sort of stepped further and further

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out from a really dogmatic view and more

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towards trying to just grapple with the

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experience

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and from there

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uh i went through a phase where i was

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okay how do i

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without being dogmatic how do i make

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sense of all this and i kind of went

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through a bit of a dark night of the

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soul

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for a few years and then eventually

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found integral theory

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which really helped me to see how i

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could tie in

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you know things like science and and

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modern thinking

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and critical thinking with a spiritual

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element as well and integral theory and

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chem wilbur helped me to see how these

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different domains of truth are all true

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in their own ways and that what we'd had

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before then was these different domains

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sort of claiming absolute territory you

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exactly we have the only take on truth

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and everybody else is just wrong

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so finally i was able to see how all

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these things can work together in a

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really integrated way that was totally

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inspiring to me

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then i went through a phase where

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um

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some of the people in integral circles

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are so focused on categorization and be

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able to name things and to a t that i

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felt like sometimes some of the

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spiritual

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uh

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like being on the cutting edge of the

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spiritual

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uh reaction and experience was missing

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and so then i pursued some spiritual

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teachers and some eastern teachers

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who really

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seemed to me to get at the energetic

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core of what was really going on and and

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didn't get caught up in

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in language and and therefore didn't try

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to make the spiritual experience one

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step removed from the actual experience

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and the more i've

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even when i've come to the the

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phenomenon and i think about different

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states of consciousness and whatnot and

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how often people seem to have

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experiences in an alternate state of

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consciousness

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we tend to again go okay if it was a

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dream it's not real it doesn't count as

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much you know that kind of thing if it's

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in a hypnagogic state or if they are

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using dmt or something it doesn't count

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you know again we have these prejudices

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about these different

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ways we experience reality so for me

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i've tried to step further and further

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away from that have more of a raw sort

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of naked awareness uh of experience and

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just let that guide me rather than

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let me just have one more piece and that

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is of course with biblical history it's

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fascinating to me that

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um

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much of what was written and was

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experienced by people thousands of years

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ago might very well be experiences with

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the same phenomenon that we're all

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talking about and captivated by now so

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that's been a big part of it for me as

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well yeah for sure i mean what what a

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great story to share

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do you feel that there was at some point

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where

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uh in your journey the dogma sort of

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failed it sounds like you're incredibly

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uh sort of where you are now you're at

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this very place of like high plasticity

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um but in the past it was not the case

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at all like what was it kind of was a

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break moment for you

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that uh that shifted your your paradigm

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there

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you know i don't think it was one thing

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i think that i i began to feel more and

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more cognitive dissonance over time

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where i would see how people around me

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would just be you know

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lockstep into this sort of dogmatic way

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of seeing reality and of course human

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beings

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whether they're scientists you know

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buying the dogma of scientism or whether

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it's religious people buying their dogma

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it's it's just a human issue you know

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it's not really to do with religious

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00:10:37,509 --> 00:10:34,959
people per se

285
00:10:39,430 --> 00:10:37,519
uh anyone who kind of adopts a worldview

286
00:10:42,310 --> 00:10:39,440
tends to make that absolute that's just

287
00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:42,320
the way we are we were built to go

288
00:10:46,630 --> 00:10:44,640
through the world we we want to

289
00:10:48,790 --> 00:10:46,640
eliminate as much

290
00:10:51,590 --> 00:10:48,800
data as possible so by beginning with a

291
00:10:54,230 --> 00:10:51,600
dogmatic perspective whether it's again

292
00:10:56,550 --> 00:10:54,240
a rationalistic reductionistic view or

293
00:10:57,829 --> 00:10:56,560
religious view it helps to make sense of

294
00:10:59,670 --> 00:10:57,839
the world you can get up in the morning

295
00:11:02,230 --> 00:10:59,680
and it's not so difficult right we all

296
00:11:03,910 --> 00:11:02,240
do it for me what started happening was

297
00:11:04,870 --> 00:11:03,920
just one thing after another after

298
00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:04,880
another

299
00:11:08,389 --> 00:11:06,800
didn't quite fit for me anymore i just

300
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,399
had a hard time

301
00:11:11,670 --> 00:11:10,800
uh seeing how

302
00:11:14,870 --> 00:11:11,680
this

303
00:11:17,350 --> 00:11:14,880
supposed to work it just it didn't feel

304
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,360
realistic to me and so over time

305
00:11:21,030 --> 00:11:19,360
i felt more dissonance until eventually

306
00:11:22,389 --> 00:11:21,040
i just had to break away

307
00:11:23,829 --> 00:11:22,399
and again that's why i see that that

308
00:11:25,750 --> 00:11:23,839
dark night of a soul

309
00:11:28,069 --> 00:11:25,760
and that's why i even feel for people

310
00:11:29,910 --> 00:11:28,079
who have experiences with a phenomenon

311
00:11:31,750 --> 00:11:29,920
and try and fit it within a traditional

312
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:31,760
religious perspective because it just

313
00:11:36,470 --> 00:11:34,320
doesn't fit very well right and uh and

314
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:36,480
then it's a very scary kind of a lone

315
00:11:39,190 --> 00:11:37,680
feeling when you don't know what to do

316
00:11:40,150 --> 00:11:39,200
with it

317
00:11:42,949 --> 00:11:40,160
definitely

318
00:11:46,069 --> 00:11:42,959
and and what sort of got you from

319
00:11:48,150 --> 00:11:46,079
that journey and then the the uh the

320
00:11:49,990 --> 00:11:48,160
interest in the phenomenon being kind of

321
00:11:52,389 --> 00:11:50,000
an enthusiast of that

322
00:11:54,470 --> 00:11:52,399
to then deciding you know what i i want

323
00:11:57,030 --> 00:11:54,480
to start pushing out content you know i

324
00:11:58,470 --> 00:11:57,040
really want to take this into a

325
00:12:01,269 --> 00:11:58,480
different medium

326
00:12:02,949 --> 00:12:01,279
uh and and explore this in a in a more

327
00:12:03,910 --> 00:12:02,959
public way i mean that must have been a

328
00:12:05,110 --> 00:12:03,920
pretty

329
00:12:07,030 --> 00:12:05,120
um

330
00:12:08,310 --> 00:12:07,040
challenging journey to go through that

331
00:12:09,829 --> 00:12:08,320
many of us have probably gone through

332
00:12:13,269 --> 00:12:09,839
who've thought about dipping our toes

333
00:12:15,030 --> 00:12:13,279
into the more public uh discourse here

334
00:12:16,790 --> 00:12:15,040
no that's a great question and that's

335
00:12:19,110 --> 00:12:16,800
again where i have that

336
00:12:21,829 --> 00:12:19,120
sneaking suspicion of leading you know

337
00:12:23,509 --> 00:12:21,839
because i don't really know i mean

338
00:12:24,550 --> 00:12:23,519
that's that's the truth of i mean i can

339
00:12:26,629 --> 00:12:24,560
try and

340
00:12:28,790 --> 00:12:26,639
after the fact give you a justification

341
00:12:31,269 --> 00:12:28,800
or a rationale but

342
00:12:33,509 --> 00:12:31,279
i kind of at some point just changed

343
00:12:35,990 --> 00:12:33,519
course and have felt kind of driven

344
00:12:39,509 --> 00:12:36,000
towards this almost like a compulsion

345
00:12:42,150 --> 00:12:39,519
and i i as as i'm sure many of us wonder

346
00:12:43,030 --> 00:12:42,160
what makes me do this as obsessively as

347
00:12:45,269 --> 00:12:43,040
i do

348
00:12:46,870 --> 00:12:45,279
i would have never known

349
00:12:49,190 --> 00:12:46,880
five years ago

350
00:12:51,030 --> 00:12:49,200
that i'd be doing this weekly podcast

351
00:12:52,310 --> 00:12:51,040
and talking to people about this and

352
00:12:54,710 --> 00:12:52,320
thinking about this and reading about

353
00:12:57,509 --> 00:12:54,720
this on a daily basis you know

354
00:12:59,430 --> 00:12:57,519
every single day for years on end so

355
00:13:01,110 --> 00:12:59,440
very strange and and it's one of these

356
00:13:04,389 --> 00:13:01,120
subtle things that it's really hard to

357
00:13:06,790 --> 00:13:04,399
peg down when did it begin i mean i was

358
00:13:09,670 --> 00:13:06,800
i had an interest in the phenomenon

359
00:13:10,550 --> 00:13:09,680
going way back into the late 90s with

360
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:10,560
um

361
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:12,240
with whitley strieber

362
00:13:15,990 --> 00:13:14,720
and his books really impacted me and

363
00:13:18,389 --> 00:13:16,000
i've actually been rereading some of

364
00:13:20,870 --> 00:13:18,399
them recently and it's interesting

365
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:20,880
coming back to it now and having

366
00:13:24,310 --> 00:13:22,639
a much more you know sophisticated

367
00:13:26,710 --> 00:13:24,320
palette with which to address that

368
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,720
material and to digest it because when i

369
00:13:31,030 --> 00:13:29,200
first read it it was really compelling

370
00:13:32,629 --> 00:13:31,040
and i knew somehow it was touching

371
00:13:34,710 --> 00:13:32,639
something in me i didn't know exactly

372
00:13:37,110 --> 00:13:34,720
what um

373
00:13:38,310 --> 00:13:37,120
and then i sort of dropped it for a long

374
00:13:39,590 --> 00:13:38,320
period of time and went through this

375
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:39,600
sort of you know

376
00:13:44,389 --> 00:13:41,360
zigzagging spiritual journey that

377
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:44,399
somehow makes sense uh i think if you

378
00:13:46,790 --> 00:13:45,519
look at it from the right perspective

379
00:13:49,670 --> 00:13:46,800
it's a straight line even though it

380
00:13:51,350 --> 00:13:49,680
doesn't seem that way sometimes

381
00:13:52,230 --> 00:13:51,360
and then

382
00:13:53,269 --> 00:13:52,240
you know

383
00:13:55,430 --> 00:13:53,279
in the

384
00:13:56,310 --> 00:13:55,440
around 2015 kind of thing picked it up

385
00:14:00,470 --> 00:13:56,320
again

386
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:00,480
what it was but one thing after another

387
00:14:04,870 --> 00:14:03,279
before i knew it i was completely in and

388
00:14:06,069 --> 00:14:04,880
no turning back and it's been that way

389
00:14:08,150 --> 00:14:06,079
ever since

390
00:14:09,990 --> 00:14:08,160
yes and as far as starting the show i

391
00:14:11,829 --> 00:14:10,000
think that's a great question and i

392
00:14:12,870 --> 00:14:11,839
think what it comes down to is being on

393
00:14:15,269 --> 00:14:12,880
twitter

394
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:15,279
and getting tired of only having 220

395
00:14:18,949 --> 00:14:16,800
characters or whatever it is to express

396
00:14:21,910 --> 00:14:18,959
myself because this is such a

397
00:14:24,230 --> 00:14:21,920
sophisticated nuanced uh phenomenon you

398
00:14:26,389 --> 00:14:24,240
know i remember john alexander has said

399
00:14:28,949 --> 00:14:26,399
that it's easily as complicated as

400
00:14:30,870 --> 00:14:28,959
cancer you know probably far more so and

401
00:14:33,110 --> 00:14:30,880
we have thousands and thousands of

402
00:14:35,030 --> 00:14:33,120
people and are pouring billions of

403
00:14:36,629 --> 00:14:35,040
dollars into this every single day year

404
00:14:39,350 --> 00:14:36,639
after year after year decade after

405
00:14:41,509 --> 00:14:39,360
decade trying to understand it

406
00:14:43,350 --> 00:14:41,519
the phenomenon is easily as complex and

407
00:14:44,550 --> 00:14:43,360
yet there's not nearly the resources nor

408
00:14:47,189 --> 00:14:44,560
even the

409
00:14:48,790 --> 00:14:47,199
admission that it exists by you know by

410
00:14:50,310 --> 00:14:48,800
most of society

411
00:14:53,350 --> 00:14:50,320
so for me

412
00:14:54,710 --> 00:14:53,360
at some point i realized okay i

413
00:14:56,870 --> 00:14:54,720
even in you know thinking back to

414
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:56,880
conversations with my wife and over time

415
00:15:00,069 --> 00:14:58,720
you develop this shared vocabulary and

416
00:15:01,910 --> 00:15:00,079
you develop a

417
00:15:03,590 --> 00:15:01,920
um a shared understanding of what you

418
00:15:05,750 --> 00:15:03,600
mean by certain events right and that

419
00:15:07,509 --> 00:15:05,760
allows you to build onto the next step

420
00:15:09,430 --> 00:15:07,519
of the conversation and the next step

421
00:15:11,430 --> 00:15:09,440
and i began to realize you know a

422
00:15:12,550 --> 00:15:11,440
podcast where i sort of weekly get to

423
00:15:14,790 --> 00:15:12,560
address this

424
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:14,800
and dive back in from different angles

425
00:15:17,030 --> 00:15:16,320
and different perspectives and look at

426
00:15:19,590 --> 00:15:17,040
it

427
00:15:21,509 --> 00:15:19,600
as a in a multi-dimensional kind of way

428
00:15:23,350 --> 00:15:21,519
and tie in these other aspects like you

429
00:15:24,949 --> 00:15:23,360
mentioned in the in the beginning with

430
00:15:27,750 --> 00:15:24,959
the size spectrum and stuff like that

431
00:15:29,990 --> 00:15:27,760
because somehow it's all connected and

432
00:15:32,870 --> 00:15:30,000
i'm convinced of that and fascinated by

433
00:15:34,949 --> 00:15:32,880
that and i realized i really needed um

434
00:15:36,790 --> 00:15:34,959
time to build some arguments and to

435
00:15:38,470 --> 00:15:36,800
explore this over a long period of time

436
00:15:40,949 --> 00:15:38,480
in a regular basis and that's when the

437
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,959
idea of a podcast made sense

438
00:15:44,629 --> 00:15:42,560
yeah and the

439
00:15:45,749 --> 00:15:44,639
it's the most personal medium that we

440
00:15:48,870 --> 00:15:45,759
have

441
00:15:51,110 --> 00:15:48,880
beyond uh face-to-face communication it

442
00:15:54,230 --> 00:15:51,120
uh electronically it's the most

443
00:15:57,110 --> 00:15:54,240
personal medium i think we have uh but i

444
00:15:59,189 --> 00:15:57,120
was going to ask you so you talked about

445
00:16:01,670 --> 00:15:59,199
five years and and

446
00:16:03,910 --> 00:16:01,680
i'm into it now i think and nathan's

447
00:16:06,870 --> 00:16:03,920
probably similar that we're consuming

448
00:16:08,790 --> 00:16:06,880
this information and thinking about this

449
00:16:10,550 --> 00:16:08,800
on a daily basis but you've been doing

450
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:10,560
it for five years so

451
00:16:15,590 --> 00:16:13,519
does this phenomenon and your study of

452
00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:15,600
it does it represent

453
00:16:21,269 --> 00:16:19,680
a calling of sorts that you found

454
00:16:22,629 --> 00:16:21,279
yeah i mean i i'd have to say i would

455
00:16:24,230 --> 00:16:22,639
agree with that that's that's a good way

456
00:16:26,629 --> 00:16:24,240
of putting it um

457
00:16:28,069 --> 00:16:26,639
you know it's uh

458
00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:28,079
there are other things i do in my life

459
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:29,600
you know i have a job like everybody

460
00:16:34,710 --> 00:16:32,560
else and which i enjoy but uh in terms

461
00:16:36,710 --> 00:16:34,720
of what really you know occupies my

462
00:16:39,030 --> 00:16:36,720
attention what fascinates me what it

463
00:16:39,990 --> 00:16:39,040
ignites my curiosity it's this

464
00:16:45,509 --> 00:16:40,000
and

465
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:45,519
you know i'm like those people who say

466
00:16:50,790 --> 00:16:48,880
you know how is how is society not more

467
00:16:52,870 --> 00:16:50,800
fascinated by this

468
00:16:53,670 --> 00:16:52,880
how are people not captivated by this i

469
00:16:55,430 --> 00:16:53,680
mean

470
00:16:57,670 --> 00:16:55,440
when we finally have evidence come out

471
00:16:59,829 --> 00:16:57,680
that's pretty hard to you know refute

472
00:17:00,710 --> 00:16:59,839
people still go yeah maybe i don't know

473
00:17:02,310 --> 00:17:00,720
you know

474
00:17:04,309 --> 00:17:02,320
right

475
00:17:05,669 --> 00:17:04,319
i mean how do you go about living your

476
00:17:07,350 --> 00:17:05,679
day-to-day life

477
00:17:10,150 --> 00:17:07,360
i mean i've almost sometimes wondered

478
00:17:12,309 --> 00:17:10,160
about like a mass trance-like effect

479
00:17:13,590 --> 00:17:12,319
in in our civilization because i don't

480
00:17:15,750 --> 00:17:13,600
understand why i mean i understand

481
00:17:17,350 --> 00:17:15,760
people have busy lives and i'm i'm lucky

482
00:17:19,029 --> 00:17:17,360
i have enough

483
00:17:20,630 --> 00:17:19,039
time and energy that i can think about

484
00:17:23,590 --> 00:17:20,640
these things i recognize that's that's a

485
00:17:25,429 --> 00:17:23,600
first world situation not everybody does

486
00:17:26,230 --> 00:17:25,439
nevertheless i'm still surprised it's

487
00:17:27,909 --> 00:17:26,240
not

488
00:17:29,430 --> 00:17:27,919
caught more people's attention uh but

489
00:17:30,950 --> 00:17:29,440
for me absolutely it feels like a

490
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:30,960
calling

491
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:33,280
no what a great question

492
00:17:37,029 --> 00:17:35,280
um well i want to talk about religion

493
00:17:39,350 --> 00:17:37,039
let's get into this more specifically so

494
00:17:41,029 --> 00:17:39,360
when we talk about religion

495
00:17:42,630 --> 00:17:41,039
uh you know we're often talking about

496
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:42,640
systems right and you've touched on this

497
00:17:47,510 --> 00:17:44,880
a little bit already you know systems

498
00:17:50,150 --> 00:17:47,520
which uh create meaning and they they

499
00:17:52,950 --> 00:17:50,160
frame like the human experience within a

500
00:17:55,750 --> 00:17:52,960
larger story it's it's my place within

501
00:17:59,270 --> 00:17:55,760
this grand story and religion is a sort

502
00:18:01,590 --> 00:17:59,280
of a a method by which we do that um in

503
00:18:03,110 --> 00:18:01,600
addition it's it's not a surprise that

504
00:18:04,710 --> 00:18:03,120
um

505
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,720
a lot of the world's religions when you

506
00:18:08,870 --> 00:18:06,880
study them and you clearly have you know

507
00:18:09,750 --> 00:18:08,880
they seem to have their roots

508
00:18:11,510 --> 00:18:09,760
in

509
00:18:13,430 --> 00:18:11,520
sort of very uh

510
00:18:15,590 --> 00:18:13,440
real things the changing of the seasons

511
00:18:18,630 --> 00:18:15,600
the movement of the stars in the sky

512
00:18:20,870 --> 00:18:18,640
uh our own biology it gets reflected in

513
00:18:23,029 --> 00:18:20,880
our religious uh sort of traditions and

514
00:18:25,430 --> 00:18:23,039
rituals um the

515
00:18:27,990 --> 00:18:25,440
these religious systems they kind of

516
00:18:30,310 --> 00:18:28,000
serve as like uh i think of them almost

517
00:18:33,110 --> 00:18:30,320
like it's a human operating system you

518
00:18:35,669 --> 00:18:33,120
know like it's a it's a software that

519
00:18:38,150 --> 00:18:35,679
runs on the human hardware um that helps

520
00:18:40,230 --> 00:18:38,160
us navigate the world

521
00:18:43,110 --> 00:18:40,240
um so when looking at it sort of from

522
00:18:44,950 --> 00:18:43,120
that perspective and that lens

523
00:18:48,549 --> 00:18:44,960
you know do you see

524
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:48,559
some parallels with uh religious uh sort

525
00:18:54,870 --> 00:18:52,960
of ideas and concepts uh and ufology uh

526
00:18:56,549 --> 00:18:54,880
itself you know like one example might

527
00:18:58,630 --> 00:18:56,559
be uh

528
00:19:01,990 --> 00:18:58,640
the uh the priestly class in the

529
00:19:04,310 --> 00:19:02,000
religious uh world would be uh analogous

530
00:19:05,590 --> 00:19:04,320
to content creators i don't want to put

531
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:05,600
yourself in that group but i guess i

532
00:19:09,270 --> 00:19:07,280
just did

533
00:19:11,830 --> 00:19:09,280
but you know do are there some parallels

534
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:11,840
that you see there uh between uh

535
00:19:14,950 --> 00:19:14,000
religion and and sort of the

536
00:19:17,110 --> 00:19:14,960
um

537
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,120
tenets of religious structure

538
00:19:20,470 --> 00:19:19,440
and and ufology and what we see out

539
00:19:22,390 --> 00:19:20,480
there

540
00:19:24,549 --> 00:19:22,400
yeah that's a great question uh it could

541
00:19:26,870 --> 00:19:24,559
go in many different directions um let

542
00:19:28,310 --> 00:19:26,880
me first point out that i agree with you

543
00:19:30,710 --> 00:19:28,320
about

544
00:19:32,630 --> 00:19:30,720
the way that religion tends to serve a

545
00:19:34,710 --> 00:19:32,640
server role almost like software you

546
00:19:36,390 --> 00:19:34,720
know and um

547
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:36,400
i've heard it put this way you know when

548
00:19:41,270 --> 00:19:38,960
we use our personal computers

549
00:19:42,390 --> 00:19:41,280
and we drag a file into a trash bin

550
00:19:44,870 --> 00:19:42,400
right

551
00:19:47,430 --> 00:19:44,880
we know we're not actually doing that

552
00:19:49,590 --> 00:19:47,440
literally right that's a representation

553
00:19:50,950 --> 00:19:49,600
that really is about

554
00:19:52,950 --> 00:19:50,960
files that are stored digitally that

555
00:19:54,630 --> 00:19:52,960
really come down to zeros and ones right

556
00:19:56,870 --> 00:19:54,640
it has it's completely removed from

557
00:20:00,870 --> 00:19:56,880
what's actually happening but it's a

558
00:20:02,710 --> 00:20:00,880
it's a useful helpful way for us to

559
00:20:04,390 --> 00:20:02,720
do something in a in what feels like a

560
00:20:06,710 --> 00:20:04,400
meaningful way that we has meaning for

561
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:06,720
us and we understand and is easy to

562
00:20:11,510 --> 00:20:09,360
access i think yes religion serves that

563
00:20:13,909 --> 00:20:11,520
role i think that

564
00:20:15,350 --> 00:20:13,919
speaking of priestly class you know in

565
00:20:17,110 --> 00:20:15,360
modern society

566
00:20:18,950 --> 00:20:17,120
the the neil degrasse tysons of the

567
00:20:20,870 --> 00:20:18,960
world have become the new the new sort

568
00:20:23,750 --> 00:20:20,880
of priestly class you know when

569
00:20:25,669 --> 00:20:23,760
when uh spaceships are in the sky

570
00:20:27,510 --> 00:20:25,679
regardless of whether it might involve

571
00:20:29,669 --> 00:20:27,520
consciousness and

572
00:20:31,430 --> 00:20:29,679
elements of spirituality the first thing

573
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:31,440
reporters want to talk to is astronomers

574
00:20:36,070 --> 00:20:33,679
right they just think an astrophysicist

575
00:20:38,470 --> 00:20:36,080
is today's priest um it wouldn't occur

576
00:20:39,990 --> 00:20:38,480
to them to go talk to a priest um so

577
00:20:42,310 --> 00:20:40,000
that's interesting how that's changed

578
00:20:43,909 --> 00:20:42,320
but it's it's not dissolved it's just

579
00:20:46,230 --> 00:20:43,919
shifted right so in front we went from

580
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:46,240
priests to now astrophysicists

581
00:20:51,590 --> 00:20:50,080
and um and in terms of within ufology i

582
00:20:53,750 --> 00:20:51,600
find it very interesting how you get

583
00:20:56,630 --> 00:20:53,760
this kind of dichotomy you get the the

584
00:20:57,830 --> 00:20:56,640
nuts and bolts people right who are

585
00:20:59,990 --> 00:20:57,840
um

586
00:21:01,510 --> 00:21:00,000
fascinated by sort of the technological

587
00:21:03,990 --> 00:21:01,520
aspects right that there could be these

588
00:21:06,870 --> 00:21:04,000
really advanced craft and this means you

589
00:21:08,630 --> 00:21:06,880
know aliens from alpha centauri are here

590
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:08,640
and that's really cool and alien

591
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,720
civilizations some people are just sort

592
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:12,480
of focused on that level and then

593
00:21:15,110 --> 00:21:13,919
there's the other

594
00:21:17,110 --> 00:21:15,120
side

595
00:21:19,270 --> 00:21:17,120
involving experiencers and people who

596
00:21:22,310 --> 00:21:19,280
follow experiencers who've had this

597
00:21:25,430 --> 00:21:22,320
entirely different and much

598
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,440
deeper and more broad uh spiritual

599
00:21:28,950 --> 00:21:27,280
awakening because of this now of course

600
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,960
there's there's the negative aspect too

601
00:21:32,390 --> 00:21:30,880
and we can talk about that but many

602
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:32,400
people have

603
00:21:37,190 --> 00:21:35,120
taken it on kind of like in replacement

604
00:21:39,510 --> 00:21:37,200
for a religion you know and i know uh

605
00:21:41,750 --> 00:21:39,520
jacques villa was was really convinced

606
00:21:43,110 --> 00:21:41,760
in the 1970s that

607
00:21:45,590 --> 00:21:43,120
ufos were going to turn into the next

608
00:21:46,710 --> 00:21:45,600
big religion that hasn't really happened

609
00:21:49,350 --> 00:21:46,720
but

610
00:21:50,470 --> 00:21:49,360
you see elements of that around and in

611
00:21:52,390 --> 00:21:50,480
terms of

612
00:21:54,950 --> 00:21:52,400
the priestly class within ufology like

613
00:21:55,750 --> 00:21:54,960
you said what i find interesting

614
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:55,760
is

615
00:21:58,630 --> 00:21:57,520
you know you have someone like david

616
00:22:01,190 --> 00:21:58,640
fravor

617
00:22:03,510 --> 00:22:01,200
you know someone like that or

618
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,520
a tom delong you know who's had

619
00:22:08,470 --> 00:22:05,679
experiences

620
00:22:10,950 --> 00:22:08,480
knows some things and then suddenly

621
00:22:12,950 --> 00:22:10,960
people ascribe to them all sorts of

622
00:22:15,430 --> 00:22:12,960
authority about everything in life you

623
00:22:17,669 --> 00:22:15,440
know what i mean so it's not like

624
00:22:19,669 --> 00:22:17,679
tom can you talk to us about you know

625
00:22:21,270 --> 00:22:19,679
playing guitar and what you happen to

626
00:22:22,870 --> 00:22:21,280
learn when you talk to those generals

627
00:22:24,950 --> 00:22:22,880
but it's like suddenly

628
00:22:26,230 --> 00:22:24,960
tom knows about their intentions he

629
00:22:27,669 --> 00:22:26,240
knows about all the ones that are here

630
00:22:29,350 --> 00:22:27,679
and what their ultimate aims are and he

631
00:22:31,590 --> 00:22:29,360
must know this and he must know that and

632
00:22:32,630 --> 00:22:31,600
we very quickly ascribe to these other

633
00:22:34,149 --> 00:22:32,640
people

634
00:22:36,390 --> 00:22:34,159
and they're not asking for this we just

635
00:22:38,789 --> 00:22:36,400
do it right and suddenly overnight they

636
00:22:40,789 --> 00:22:38,799
have thousands of followers on twitter

637
00:22:42,789 --> 00:22:40,799
and people assume

638
00:22:44,870 --> 00:22:42,799
because they've seen a tic tac that they

639
00:22:47,669 --> 00:22:44,880
must have this really advanced knowledge

640
00:22:49,110 --> 00:22:47,679
in all these areas right and and which i

641
00:22:51,510 --> 00:22:49,120
find interesting but it just again it

642
00:22:53,590 --> 00:22:51,520
shows you that this is a this is a human

643
00:22:55,190 --> 00:22:53,600
tendency it's not just within ufology

644
00:22:58,390 --> 00:22:55,200
it's not just within christianity or

645
00:23:00,950 --> 00:22:58,400
just within islam or just within uh you

646
00:23:02,710 --> 00:23:00,960
know the domain of science and academia

647
00:23:04,390 --> 00:23:02,720
this is just what humans do and that's

648
00:23:06,950 --> 00:23:04,400
right whatever particular group we're in

649
00:23:09,110 --> 00:23:06,960
we we look to ascribe that authority to

650
00:23:12,310 --> 00:23:09,120
someone right just what you talked about

651
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,320
earlier this man myth monument

652
00:23:16,070 --> 00:23:14,640
uh type of progression and that there's

653
00:23:18,870 --> 00:23:16,080
this inertia

654
00:23:21,510 --> 00:23:18,880
that gets generated once that

655
00:23:24,310 --> 00:23:21,520
account at firsthand account is shared

656
00:23:26,870 --> 00:23:24,320
and and followers of a certain size

657
00:23:28,630 --> 00:23:26,880
accumulate right it's not necessarily a

658
00:23:30,310 --> 00:23:28,640
following of three or four it's like

659
00:23:31,909 --> 00:23:30,320
there's this sort of critical mass that

660
00:23:33,990 --> 00:23:31,919
is reached at which point it begins this

661
00:23:35,510 --> 00:23:34,000
snowballing effect and as you were kind

662
00:23:36,789 --> 00:23:35,520
of talking through that it made me think

663
00:23:39,270 --> 00:23:36,799
about my own

664
00:23:40,149 --> 00:23:39,280
uh history and and with religious

665
00:23:42,630 --> 00:23:40,159
studies and particularly with

666
00:23:44,710 --> 00:23:42,640
christianity you know thinking about uh

667
00:23:47,590 --> 00:23:44,720
the writers of the new testament or if

668
00:23:50,630 --> 00:23:47,600
there were any uh first-hand experiences

669
00:23:54,230 --> 00:23:50,640
of of that story how they may have felt

670
00:23:54,950 --> 00:23:54,240
pressure uh from their constituents uh

671
00:23:59,590 --> 00:23:54,960
to

672
00:24:01,909 --> 00:23:59,600
that ball rolling downhill

673
00:24:03,909 --> 00:24:01,919
not that they wanted to embellish uh per

674
00:24:06,470 --> 00:24:03,919
se but there's this again this inertia

675
00:24:08,230 --> 00:24:06,480
that almost drives that in a direction

676
00:24:09,750 --> 00:24:08,240
that ends up really kind of being out of

677
00:24:12,390 --> 00:24:09,760
their control

678
00:24:14,630 --> 00:24:12,400
yeah it's that happens and i think also

679
00:24:16,070 --> 00:24:14,640
what happens is pretty quickly within a

680
00:24:18,149 --> 00:24:16,080
generation or two and of course as you

681
00:24:19,990 --> 00:24:18,159
know from your background with religious

682
00:24:21,430 --> 00:24:20,000
history these become oral traditions for

683
00:24:24,149 --> 00:24:21,440
a long time before they're ever written

684
00:24:26,149 --> 00:24:24,159
down right and when when that's the case

685
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:26,159
it has all sorts of opportunity for

686
00:24:29,990 --> 00:24:27,760
embellishment to come in it's sort of

687
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:30,000
the the standard you know i'm going to

688
00:24:34,470 --> 00:24:32,240
talk through the cup through a string to

689
00:24:35,590 --> 00:24:34,480
another cop that you're listening to

690
00:24:36,870 --> 00:24:35,600
you know it goes on and on and by the

691
00:24:39,110 --> 00:24:36,880
time it gets the 10th person it's

692
00:24:41,750 --> 00:24:39,120
actually changed a fair bit right right

693
00:24:43,029 --> 00:24:41,760
have that going on and i think even more

694
00:24:46,149 --> 00:24:43,039
importantly

695
00:24:50,870 --> 00:24:46,159
you have this human tendency to want to

696
00:24:52,390 --> 00:24:50,880
turn our ancestors into heroes right so

697
00:24:55,350 --> 00:24:52,400
you got someone like you know the

698
00:24:57,110 --> 00:24:55,360
apostle paul and you know some of the

699
00:24:58,710 --> 00:24:57,120
other apostles who saw when he was

700
00:25:00,630 --> 00:24:58,720
persecuting christians before he had

701
00:25:02,630 --> 00:25:00,640
kind of his conversion experience

702
00:25:03,590 --> 00:25:02,640
and they go yeah we know paul i mean he

703
00:25:05,029 --> 00:25:03,600
wasn't

704
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:05,039
he was quite a ball of work before you

705
00:25:08,950 --> 00:25:06,640
know he came on our side kind of thing

706
00:25:10,310 --> 00:25:08,960
whereas now christians and evangelicals

707
00:25:12,710 --> 00:25:10,320
now when they think about paul they just

708
00:25:14,470 --> 00:25:12,720
have this glowing perspective of him

709
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:14,480
they even have a hard time

710
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,080
reading the bible reading the new

711
00:25:19,750 --> 00:25:18,080
testament and really seeing him as a

712
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:19,760
human being and even seeing some of the

713
00:25:23,750 --> 00:25:21,120
flaws that are kind of there if you're

714
00:25:25,350 --> 00:25:23,760
paying attention right and so

715
00:25:27,590 --> 00:25:25,360
even when it comes to people like you

716
00:25:29,269 --> 00:25:27,600
know moses and whatnot having these

717
00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:29,279
crazy experiences in the old testament

718
00:25:31,909 --> 00:25:30,080
again

719
00:25:33,990 --> 00:25:31,919
i think the reason why people

720
00:25:36,549 --> 00:25:34,000
sort of dogmatically and automatically

721
00:25:38,070 --> 00:25:36,559
assume that's not the ufo phenomenon is

722
00:25:40,070 --> 00:25:38,080
because they think no that that was a

723
00:25:42,310 --> 00:25:40,080
completely different era of history that

724
00:25:44,630 --> 00:25:42,320
was the era of revelation when god was

725
00:25:47,190 --> 00:25:44,640
like reaching down and and touching us

726
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:47,200
directly and that's not like today but

727
00:25:51,510 --> 00:25:49,360
if you think about that it's just it's a

728
00:25:55,029 --> 00:25:51,520
pure prejudice it's it's just again it's

729
00:25:57,350 --> 00:25:55,039
that desire to want to make now simpler

730
00:25:59,029 --> 00:25:57,360
put it in a box put it in a book right

731
00:26:01,029 --> 00:25:59,039
so then for evangelicals it's sort of

732
00:26:03,750 --> 00:26:01,039
the the era of the bible rather than the

733
00:26:05,510 --> 00:26:03,760
era of revelation so now it's safe it's

734
00:26:08,230 --> 00:26:05,520
in this text it's always going to be the

735
00:26:10,230 --> 00:26:08,240
same i feel comfortable because of it

736
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:10,240
right while it was probably exactly the

737
00:26:14,789 --> 00:26:12,640
same back then as it is today like it

738
00:26:17,430 --> 00:26:14,799
would just men walking around having

739
00:26:18,870 --> 00:26:17,440
exactly epiphanies

740
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:18,880
trying to make sense of these bizarre

741
00:26:24,390 --> 00:26:21,279
things happening exactly and

742
00:26:26,149 --> 00:26:24,400
and and probably just as confused even

743
00:26:28,390 --> 00:26:26,159
after they've said these things in past

744
00:26:29,990 --> 00:26:28,400
on these teachings and yet we want to

745
00:26:32,070 --> 00:26:30,000
treat them like they're these

746
00:26:34,149 --> 00:26:32,080
pillars who just have these super

747
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:34,159
crystal clear understandings and never

748
00:26:38,710 --> 00:26:36,240
wrestle with the same sort of human

749
00:26:42,070 --> 00:26:38,720
challenges that all of us do right

750
00:26:46,950 --> 00:26:44,230
i mean it's it's a fair question i think

751
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,960
that depending on partly on what the

752
00:26:51,110 --> 00:26:48,960
the agents behind the phenomenon do and

753
00:26:53,750 --> 00:26:51,120
i say that deliberately plural because i

754
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:53,760
i my take is that this is

755
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:56,000
much more complex than than most still

756
00:26:59,909 --> 00:26:58,240
realize and again speaking of human

757
00:27:02,070 --> 00:26:59,919
tendencies we have a tendency for

758
00:27:03,750 --> 00:27:02,080
simplicity we want to

759
00:27:06,390 --> 00:27:03,760
the same way that our our computer

760
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:06,400
system makes it simpler when we can drag

761
00:27:09,830 --> 00:27:08,400
a file into a trash can that feels easy

762
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:09,840
and relatable

763
00:27:14,310 --> 00:27:11,279
we don't really want to know about the

764
00:27:16,870 --> 00:27:14,320
complexity uh of what's going on inside

765
00:27:18,950 --> 00:27:16,880
a computer right

766
00:27:21,430 --> 00:27:18,960
same way you know

767
00:27:23,269 --> 00:27:21,440
we we it's easier for us to go what are

768
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,279
the aliens doing what is their purpose

769
00:27:27,029 --> 00:27:25,440
like singular like it's one entity or

770
00:27:28,149 --> 00:27:27,039
one race that's here and they have a

771
00:27:29,190 --> 00:27:28,159
purpose

772
00:27:33,430 --> 00:27:29,200
and

773
00:27:35,029 --> 00:27:33,440
this tendency from one group to sort of

774
00:27:36,470 --> 00:27:35,039
paint them all negative and another

775
00:27:37,909 --> 00:27:36,480
group paint them as all positive you

776
00:27:40,549 --> 00:27:37,919
know it's either all love or light or

777
00:27:42,389 --> 00:27:40,559
it's all sort of demonic uh you know

778
00:27:43,190 --> 00:27:42,399
turning humans into zombies kind of

779
00:27:45,430 --> 00:27:43,200
thing

780
00:27:46,830 --> 00:27:45,440
um again it's that tendency to want to

781
00:27:49,110 --> 00:27:46,840
simplify

782
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:49,120
and to answer your question more

783
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,039
directly in terms of religion

784
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,440
depending what happens i mean

785
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,880
seems to me that a lot of what's been

786
00:27:57,750 --> 00:27:56,080
going on has

787
00:27:59,430 --> 00:27:57,760
been meant to happen on the subconscious

788
00:28:01,430 --> 00:27:59,440
level so i'm definitely in jacques

789
00:28:02,710 --> 00:28:01,440
villa's camp that

790
00:28:04,389 --> 00:28:02,720
there's some sort of control system

791
00:28:05,909 --> 00:28:04,399
going on that is happening underneath

792
00:28:07,830 --> 00:28:05,919
our noses that we're not even aware of

793
00:28:10,149 --> 00:28:07,840
and especially the elite of our culture

794
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:10,159
are not aware of it and yet it can over

795
00:28:14,950 --> 00:28:13,279
time create massive transformation uh

796
00:28:16,230 --> 00:28:14,960
which i think is unsettling to many

797
00:28:18,149 --> 00:28:16,240
because they feel like they're not

798
00:28:20,230 --> 00:28:18,159
agents of their own destiny kind of

799
00:28:22,950 --> 00:28:20,240
thing but i think that's what's going on

800
00:28:25,750 --> 00:28:22,960
i think if the ufo phenomenon did

801
00:28:27,669 --> 00:28:25,760
something more direct and

802
00:28:29,430 --> 00:28:27,679
revelatory you know we we had this

803
00:28:30,950 --> 00:28:29,440
anjali person who's talking about going

804
00:28:33,190 --> 00:28:30,960
into this mountain

805
00:28:34,710 --> 00:28:33,200
um you know and supposedly uncovering

806
00:28:36,389 --> 00:28:34,720
this alien base

807
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:36,399
something like that happens

808
00:28:40,310 --> 00:28:38,240
and there's direct evidence say if that

809
00:28:41,590 --> 00:28:40,320
happens in the future sometime this year

810
00:28:43,269 --> 00:28:41,600
and you've got the message she's

811
00:28:44,389 --> 00:28:43,279
bringing of this peace love and light

812
00:28:45,909 --> 00:28:44,399
connection

813
00:28:47,990 --> 00:28:45,919
then sure i think a whole bunch of

814
00:28:49,110 --> 00:28:48,000
people could then jump on that and that

815
00:28:50,950 --> 00:28:49,120
could become a kind of modern day

816
00:28:52,950 --> 00:28:50,960
religion

817
00:28:56,230 --> 00:28:52,960
right and where do you see some of these

818
00:28:59,669 --> 00:28:56,240
uh friction points uh emerging so

819
00:29:02,389 --> 00:28:59,679
uh we know of the uh example from luis

820
00:29:04,789 --> 00:29:02,399
elizondo about the folks within the

821
00:29:06,470 --> 00:29:04,799
pentagon who seem to think you did a

822
00:29:07,750 --> 00:29:06,480
whole episode on this in fact or related

823
00:29:09,029 --> 00:29:07,760
to this topic

824
00:29:11,269 --> 00:29:09,039
pushing back

825
00:29:12,389 --> 00:29:11,279
against uh studying this phenomenon

826
00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:12,399
because of their

827
00:29:17,830 --> 00:29:15,200
religious conviction um how do you see

828
00:29:19,750 --> 00:29:17,840
kind of us navigating

829
00:29:21,750 --> 00:29:19,760
all of these different perspectives and

830
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:21,760
we are having i recognize this in full

831
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,480
view of this place that we ourselves are

832
00:29:29,590 --> 00:29:27,360
in in this western space

833
00:29:32,070 --> 00:29:29,600
where we have a pretty shared kind of

834
00:29:33,430 --> 00:29:32,080
fabric that is uh you know comfortable

835
00:29:34,950 --> 00:29:33,440
to us and there are

836
00:29:37,510 --> 00:29:34,960
loads of other people around the world

837
00:29:39,590 --> 00:29:37,520
who hold entirely different world views

838
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:39,600
and religious perspectives and they're

839
00:29:43,269 --> 00:29:41,279
not even really

840
00:29:45,110 --> 00:29:43,279
having that kind of this conversation

841
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:45,120
with us right now at least in the in the

842
00:29:50,950 --> 00:29:48,159
way that we seem to view it

843
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:50,960
right absolutely um

844
00:29:55,269 --> 00:29:53,840
again really important question i think

845
00:29:57,110 --> 00:29:55,279
i'm one of the things i've been most

846
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:57,120
most amazed by

847
00:30:01,029 --> 00:29:59,039
because i was most one of the ways that

848
00:30:03,590 --> 00:30:01,039
integral theory against again was really

849
00:30:05,590 --> 00:30:03,600
revelatory for me was realizing

850
00:30:07,909 --> 00:30:05,600
developmental levels that co that

851
00:30:09,590 --> 00:30:07,919
coexist simultaneously around the world

852
00:30:11,750 --> 00:30:09,600
within our civilization so within

853
00:30:14,149 --> 00:30:11,760
western culture as also you know in the

854
00:30:15,990 --> 00:30:14,159
middle east and elsewhere different ones

855
00:30:17,430 --> 00:30:16,000
but you have these different world views

856
00:30:19,430 --> 00:30:17,440
that again they're they're

857
00:30:20,789 --> 00:30:19,440
simultaneously absolute but about

858
00:30:22,389 --> 00:30:20,799
different things

859
00:30:24,549 --> 00:30:22,399
and they're all going on at the same

860
00:30:26,710 --> 00:30:24,559
time so when people ask the question

861
00:30:28,070 --> 00:30:26,720
what will disclosure look like

862
00:30:29,669 --> 00:30:28,080
there's no way to answer that in a

863
00:30:30,470 --> 00:30:29,679
singular because

864
00:30:31,750 --> 00:30:30,480
um

865
00:30:35,029 --> 00:30:31,760
you know we

866
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:35,039
uh we are not we may be a human species

867
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:38,159
but we have a wide variety of uh

868
00:30:42,149 --> 00:30:39,600
differences between us different

869
00:30:44,310 --> 00:30:42,159
cultural views

870
00:30:45,510 --> 00:30:44,320
in the west for instance we we really

871
00:30:47,430 --> 00:30:45,520
don't think

872
00:30:48,789 --> 00:30:47,440
anything that you can't measure right

873
00:30:50,630 --> 00:30:48,799
and that you can't reproduce through the

874
00:30:52,389 --> 00:30:50,640
scientific method even exists a lot of

875
00:30:53,350 --> 00:30:52,399
people think that right in other

876
00:30:54,789 --> 00:30:53,360
cultures

877
00:30:56,310 --> 00:30:54,799
they have no problem believing that all

878
00:30:58,070 --> 00:30:56,320
sorts of other things exist if you go to

879
00:30:59,750 --> 00:30:58,080
india a very different view

880
00:31:01,909 --> 00:30:59,760
and they might look at the phenomenon in

881
00:31:04,149 --> 00:31:01,919
a very different way they may fit into

882
00:31:06,710 --> 00:31:04,159
sort of their pre-existing notions of

883
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:06,720
how these extra-dimensional realities

884
00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:08,480
have always coexisted so it's not it's

885
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:10,240
not a reach for them but they not might

886
00:31:15,110 --> 00:31:12,559
not pick alien you know or as their

887
00:31:16,389 --> 00:31:15,120
first category to ascribe to that uh

888
00:31:19,509 --> 00:31:16,399
experience

889
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:19,519
um and then within yeah when people say

890
00:31:22,950 --> 00:31:21,360
you know government it's this big bad

891
00:31:24,870 --> 00:31:22,960
thing and you know the government's

892
00:31:26,789 --> 00:31:24,880
doing this and the government's holding

893
00:31:27,909 --> 00:31:26,799
back information i get that and it's

894
00:31:30,470 --> 00:31:27,919
certainly

895
00:31:32,710 --> 00:31:30,480
true that we've had 75 years of

896
00:31:35,990 --> 00:31:32,720
not only holding back information but

897
00:31:39,430 --> 00:31:36,000
deliberate misinformation campaigns

898
00:31:40,549 --> 00:31:39,440
deliberate uh you know desire to confuse

899
00:31:42,950 --> 00:31:40,559
people

900
00:31:44,310 --> 00:31:42,960
this constant uh technique of bleeding

901
00:31:46,710 --> 00:31:44,320
out a little bit of truth with all sorts

902
00:31:47,909 --> 00:31:46,720
of falsehoods so you get this stop and

903
00:31:49,509 --> 00:31:47,919
start kind of thing until people

904
00:31:51,750 --> 00:31:49,519
eventually are exhausted and just think

905
00:31:52,549 --> 00:31:51,760
the whole thing is hogwash somehow

906
00:31:55,110 --> 00:31:52,559
um

907
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,120
while that's been going on

908
00:31:58,149 --> 00:31:56,799
at the same time

909
00:32:00,710 --> 00:31:58,159
government

910
00:32:02,389 --> 00:32:00,720
has a uh a broad assortment of different

911
00:32:04,870 --> 00:32:02,399
people with different world views just

912
00:32:07,909 --> 00:32:04,880
like society does right so

913
00:32:09,509 --> 00:32:07,919
like luis elizondo ran into some people

914
00:32:11,509 --> 00:32:09,519
just wanted to shut down the

915
00:32:13,430 --> 00:32:11,519
conversation the investigation from the

916
00:32:14,870 --> 00:32:13,440
get-go because they just assumed these

917
00:32:16,870 --> 00:32:14,880
were demons

918
00:32:18,710 --> 00:32:16,880
and i've talked about this before

919
00:32:20,870 --> 00:32:18,720
you know when you have a

920
00:32:22,149 --> 00:32:20,880
uh sort of a perspective on reality that

921
00:32:24,789 --> 00:32:22,159
you either have

922
00:32:26,710 --> 00:32:24,799
humans and animals right from the earth

923
00:32:29,110 --> 00:32:26,720
if it's not that you only have two other

924
00:32:31,430 --> 00:32:29,120
options satan and demons

925
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:31,440
or god and angels and

926
00:32:35,430 --> 00:32:33,360
again because of a funny kind of like

927
00:32:37,029 --> 00:32:35,440
suspicion of anything new getting back

928
00:32:38,789 --> 00:32:37,039
to what we talked before about man myth

929
00:32:41,590 --> 00:32:38,799
monument this doesn't fit within my nice

930
00:32:44,149 --> 00:32:41,600
world view that's nice crisp and clean

931
00:32:46,470 --> 00:32:44,159
i'm going to say that's negative and so

932
00:32:47,750 --> 00:32:46,480
you get all sorts of sort of you know

933
00:32:49,990 --> 00:32:47,760
cherry picking

934
00:32:53,029 --> 00:32:50,000
different parts of scripture and

935
00:32:54,950 --> 00:32:53,039
applying them only in a certain way

936
00:32:56,789 --> 00:32:54,960
and you end up with this idea that

937
00:32:58,870 --> 00:32:56,799
anything that's parading in our skies no

938
00:33:00,549 --> 00:32:58,880
matter how benevolent it seems to be no

939
00:33:03,029 --> 00:33:00,559
i don't care if it heals your dog or

940
00:33:04,149 --> 00:33:03,039
your grandma you know or if it's giving

941
00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:04,159
you things that are helping you live

942
00:33:07,350 --> 00:33:05,919
your life differently and making you

943
00:33:09,190 --> 00:33:07,360
feel more spiritually alive than you

944
00:33:13,110 --> 00:33:09,200
ever have before i'm going to assume

945
00:33:15,029 --> 00:33:13,120
that's satanic because i feel safer

946
00:33:17,110 --> 00:33:15,039
and more comfortable if i have a nice

947
00:33:19,110 --> 00:33:17,120
familiar surroundings to to get up in

948
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:19,120
the morning with um is what it comes

949
00:33:23,430 --> 00:33:21,200
down to right so

950
00:33:25,029 --> 00:33:23,440
yeah i mean it's it's kind of you know

951
00:33:26,789 --> 00:33:25,039
on the one hand it's humorous on the

952
00:33:28,710 --> 00:33:26,799
other hand it's kind of you know a

953
00:33:30,470 --> 00:33:28,720
little bit infuriating it can be if you

954
00:33:32,149 --> 00:33:30,480
look at it from a certain perspective

955
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:32,159
that you've got people

956
00:33:36,630 --> 00:33:33,679
within government trying to make the

957
00:33:38,630 --> 00:33:36,640
decision for us you know saying i'm just

958
00:33:41,430 --> 00:33:38,640
going to go ahead and say this as demons

959
00:33:43,509 --> 00:33:41,440
and we can just stop there

960
00:33:44,950 --> 00:33:43,519
and my understanding is louis lozano is

961
00:33:47,190 --> 00:33:44,960
actually a religious person so it's not

962
00:33:49,110 --> 00:33:47,200
like he's right and anything is saying i

963
00:33:51,029 --> 00:33:49,120
got to get these christians he's saying

964
00:33:53,029 --> 00:33:51,039
come on i mean we shouldn't be afraid of

965
00:33:55,909 --> 00:33:53,039
truth if this is truth and let's let it

966
00:33:57,509 --> 00:33:55,919
out let's let our entire civilization uh

967
00:33:59,909 --> 00:33:57,519
uh grapple with this and figure out what

968
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,919
it means so yeah it's super complicated

969
00:34:02,789 --> 00:34:01,600
uh question to to deal with and

970
00:34:04,470 --> 00:34:02,799
disclosure

971
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,480
is not going to be simple no matter how

972
00:34:09,510 --> 00:34:06,640
it happens right and what i'm just going

973
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:09,520
to say is an extraordinary individual

974
00:34:16,230 --> 00:34:13,119
because he's so well-rounded he's not uh

975
00:34:19,190 --> 00:34:16,240
given to political zealotry in any way

976
00:34:21,990 --> 00:34:19,200
yet he's very patriotic yet he's open to

977
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:22,000
new ideas yet he's has a component of

978
00:34:25,829 --> 00:34:25,119
religiosity to him self-described

979
00:34:27,990 --> 00:34:25,839
so

980
00:34:29,190 --> 00:34:28,000
it's he's a very very

981
00:34:31,270 --> 00:34:29,200
you know i i

982
00:34:32,629 --> 00:34:31,280
you know i come from the military side

983
00:34:35,589 --> 00:34:32,639
of things i work

984
00:34:37,349 --> 00:34:35,599
uh you know i work work over there today

985
00:34:39,349 --> 00:34:37,359
even as a civilian

986
00:34:41,430 --> 00:34:39,359
and he's a he he's a very interesting

987
00:34:43,829 --> 00:34:41,440
person you don't run into a lot of

988
00:34:46,790 --> 00:34:43,839
people like him in my in my

989
00:34:49,030 --> 00:34:46,800
uh my travels through that right and and

990
00:34:51,190 --> 00:34:49,040
it's uh you know at great cost to him as

991
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:51,200
well right i mean he it wasn't like it

992
00:34:54,149 --> 00:34:52,159
was just

993
00:34:56,550 --> 00:34:54,159
he had this fantasy of going on a

994
00:34:57,829 --> 00:34:56,560
thousand podcasts

995
00:34:58,870 --> 00:34:57,839
you know that wasn't that wasn't his

996
00:35:01,030 --> 00:34:58,880
goal he

997
00:35:02,390 --> 00:35:01,040
he just really said thought to himself

998
00:35:04,390 --> 00:35:02,400
you know

999
00:35:05,829 --> 00:35:04,400
this is not this is not going to move

1000
00:35:07,990 --> 00:35:05,839
forward unless i

1001
00:35:09,829 --> 00:35:08,000
make it happen and even if that means i

1002
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:09,839
have to resign from a job i've loved

1003
00:35:13,750 --> 00:35:11,680
from you know serving a country that

1004
00:35:14,470 --> 00:35:13,760
i've loved and i've loved this you know

1005
00:35:19,430 --> 00:35:14,480
he

1006
00:35:21,109 --> 00:35:19,440
never took for granted you know his

1007
00:35:23,030 --> 00:35:21,119
position as an american

1008
00:35:24,790 --> 00:35:23,040
and i'm sure it was the hardest thing he

1009
00:35:26,630 --> 00:35:24,800
ever had to do to sort of resign from

1010
00:35:28,470 --> 00:35:26,640
that position and suddenly

1011
00:35:29,990 --> 00:35:28,480
sort of be in direct opposition to some

1012
00:35:32,069 --> 00:35:30,000
of what he was seeing going on but he

1013
00:35:34,230 --> 00:35:32,079
believed so much in the principles

1014
00:35:36,390 --> 00:35:34,240
behind what the what the military and

1015
00:35:37,990 --> 00:35:36,400
the government was supposed to stand for

1016
00:35:39,589 --> 00:35:38,000
that he was willing to do that and i

1017
00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:39,599
yeah i have total respect for him as

1018
00:35:44,870 --> 00:35:42,480
well because of that that is a lifetime

1019
00:35:47,430 --> 00:35:44,880
of paychecks that he gave up

1020
00:35:49,430 --> 00:35:47,440
when he walked away from that retirement

1021
00:35:52,150 --> 00:35:49,440
that is getting paid for the rest of

1022
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:52,160
your life i could i could actually

1023
00:35:56,069 --> 00:35:53,920
through a calculator at work figure out

1024
00:35:57,990 --> 00:35:56,079
the percentage that he gave up but

1025
00:36:00,470 --> 00:35:58,000
that's a significant amount of money to

1026
00:36:01,349 --> 00:36:00,480
say if i'm still breathing i'm getting

1027
00:36:02,950 --> 00:36:01,359
paid

1028
00:36:04,230 --> 00:36:02,960
right when you've got kids in a mortgage

1029
00:36:05,270 --> 00:36:04,240
that's not easy to do you know

1030
00:36:07,190 --> 00:36:05,280
definitely

1031
00:36:08,710 --> 00:36:07,200
well it's it's funny and

1032
00:36:10,390 --> 00:36:08,720
i don't want to dwell too much on it but

1033
00:36:12,470 --> 00:36:10,400
just in this last couple of minutes

1034
00:36:14,950 --> 00:36:12,480
we've we've talked about elizondo and

1035
00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:14,960
the way that many talk about uh a

1036
00:36:18,710 --> 00:36:16,640
religious figure right so it's

1037
00:36:20,630 --> 00:36:18,720
interesting how uh you know we're all

1038
00:36:21,990 --> 00:36:20,640
we're all prone to this as you said

1039
00:36:23,510 --> 00:36:22,000
excellent i think you've made an

1040
00:36:26,550 --> 00:36:23,520
excellent point about it earlier you

1041
00:36:29,990 --> 00:36:26,560
know we're prone to uh to

1042
00:36:31,829 --> 00:36:30,000
to changing uh to transforming a person

1043
00:36:34,550 --> 00:36:31,839
in in a way that maybe they themselves

1044
00:36:36,710 --> 00:36:34,560
have not uh even you know necessarily

1045
00:36:37,829 --> 00:36:36,720
sought but what i wanted to ask you is

1046
00:36:42,630 --> 00:36:37,839
so what

1047
00:36:47,829 --> 00:36:45,589
what i grapple with and struggle with is

1048
00:36:49,589 --> 00:36:47,839
a lot of the stories that you hear in in

1049
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:49,599
from experiencers

1050
00:36:53,670 --> 00:36:52,160
in ufology uh describe

1051
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:53,680
uh you know sort of

1052
00:36:56,870 --> 00:36:55,040
kind of uh

1053
00:36:59,589 --> 00:36:56,880
monolithic types of beings that they

1054
00:37:02,069 --> 00:36:59,599
seem very one-dimensional in a way um

1055
00:37:03,829 --> 00:37:02,079
you know whereas whereas human culture

1056
00:37:06,230 --> 00:37:03,839
we can talk about human behavior in fact

1057
00:37:09,190 --> 00:37:06,240
we we have and how human behavior tends

1058
00:37:12,069 --> 00:37:09,200
to do x y z fairly predictably but the

1059
00:37:14,790 --> 00:37:12,079
expressions of that behavior uh vary

1060
00:37:17,190 --> 00:37:14,800
quite a bit uh in in in belief in

1061
00:37:19,349 --> 00:37:17,200
practice there's a huge diversity in the

1062
00:37:21,750 --> 00:37:19,359
world uh with our cultures and

1063
00:37:23,109 --> 00:37:21,760
governments and whatnot yet

1064
00:37:25,430 --> 00:37:23,119
a lot of the experience that we hear

1065
00:37:27,750 --> 00:37:25,440
about is uh it's it's sort of almost

1066
00:37:30,310 --> 00:37:27,760
asking us to sort of transform that

1067
00:37:32,630 --> 00:37:30,320
diversity into a and flatten it down

1068
00:37:35,030 --> 00:37:32,640
into kind of a more of a one-dimensional

1069
00:37:37,030 --> 00:37:35,040
type of uh of existence have you thought

1070
00:37:39,030 --> 00:37:37,040
about that or what's your perspective

1071
00:37:40,950 --> 00:37:39,040
yeah absolutely and it's a it's a huge

1072
00:37:43,430 --> 00:37:40,960
problem so let me put it to you this way

1073
00:37:45,589 --> 00:37:43,440
guys so when you watch sci-fi movies and

1074
00:37:49,109 --> 00:37:45,599
you see alien planets what what do you

1075
00:37:51,510 --> 00:37:49,119
usually see in terms of a landscape

1076
00:37:53,510 --> 00:37:51,520
uh it doesn't look like natural with

1077
00:37:54,950 --> 00:37:53,520
like a lot of woods and stuff it doesn't

1078
00:37:57,270 --> 00:37:54,960
look like earth generally if i'm

1079
00:37:59,589 --> 00:37:57,280
thinking of star trek anyway yeah or

1080
00:38:01,030 --> 00:37:59,599
when i think about planets i think that

1081
00:38:02,950 --> 00:38:01,040
like they'll have one planet like the

1082
00:38:04,390 --> 00:38:02,960
entire planet like the grand canyon

1083
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:04,400
right like the entire planet's like the

1084
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:05,599
arctic circle you know what i mean like

1085
00:38:09,670 --> 00:38:07,440
in other words you have an ice planet or

1086
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,680
you have a desert planet you know like

1087
00:38:12,069 --> 00:38:11,280
you know in star wars

1088
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:12,079
and

1089
00:38:17,430 --> 00:38:14,560
that's again i think that that silly

1090
00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,440
sort of tendency we have as humans to to

1091
00:38:21,829 --> 00:38:19,920
truncate complexity into simplicity

1092
00:38:23,829 --> 00:38:21,839
right and so even to the point where we

1093
00:38:26,310 --> 00:38:23,839
go oh let's go to the ice planet and yet

1094
00:38:28,310 --> 00:38:26,320
we all think about it right a planet is

1095
00:38:30,150 --> 00:38:28,320
a sphere that's going to have a variety

1096
00:38:31,910 --> 00:38:30,160
of climatic conditions depending on

1097
00:38:33,990 --> 00:38:31,920
where you go how close you are to the

1098
00:38:35,430 --> 00:38:34,000
equator for any planet right right even

1099
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:35,440
if you're on mercury it's a heck of a

1100
00:38:40,150 --> 00:38:37,599
lot hotter at the equator than it is at

1101
00:38:42,230 --> 00:38:40,160
the pole uh so

1102
00:38:44,790 --> 00:38:42,240
that again sort of shows this tendency

1103
00:38:47,270 --> 00:38:44,800
we have to want to simplify things

1104
00:38:49,270 --> 00:38:47,280
um and yeah with the

1105
00:38:52,230 --> 00:38:49,280
with the phenomenon i think what happens

1106
00:38:55,270 --> 00:38:52,240
is it's so open-ended you know there's

1107
00:38:57,430 --> 00:38:55,280
so few assumptions we can begin with

1108
00:38:59,589 --> 00:38:57,440
that that scares the living daylights

1109
00:39:00,870 --> 00:38:59,599
out of people but on a subconscious

1110
00:39:04,310 --> 00:39:00,880
level i don't think most people are

1111
00:39:07,589 --> 00:39:04,320
aware of it and so they very quickly

1112
00:39:09,829 --> 00:39:07,599
run to or cling to any kind of um

1113
00:39:12,150 --> 00:39:09,839
assumption that they feel is safe

1114
00:39:15,750 --> 00:39:12,160
so you know again yeah i talked about

1115
00:39:18,150 --> 00:39:15,760
this recently um so when you have when

1116
00:39:21,510 --> 00:39:18,160
you can describe say the graves the

1117
00:39:23,829 --> 00:39:21,520
reptilians the mantids you know if you

1118
00:39:26,630 --> 00:39:23,839
can describe all of those in one

1119
00:39:29,109 --> 00:39:26,640
paragraph each something sounds fishy to

1120
00:39:31,349 --> 00:39:29,119
me you know right um

1121
00:39:33,670 --> 00:39:31,359
because uh i can't do that for one of

1122
00:39:35,829 --> 00:39:33,680
you guys right let alone for an entire

1123
00:39:38,870 --> 00:39:35,839
uh species right

1124
00:39:40,550 --> 00:39:38,880
and um you know it is to you know don't

1125
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:40,560
get a hold of exo before he's had coffee

1126
00:39:44,470 --> 00:39:42,720
in the morning you know

1127
00:39:46,550 --> 00:39:44,480
right that's that's that's a separate

1128
00:39:47,990 --> 00:39:46,560
paragraph right right right there for

1129
00:39:50,390 --> 00:39:48,000
one person

1130
00:39:52,950 --> 00:39:50,400
so yeah i absolutely agree with you it's

1131
00:39:55,030 --> 00:39:52,960
not helpful uh ultimately i don't think

1132
00:39:57,190 --> 00:39:55,040
and and again one of the things i

1133
00:40:00,310 --> 00:39:57,200
deliberately try and do with a podcast

1134
00:40:01,910 --> 00:40:00,320
is i don't overly commit to something

1135
00:40:03,670 --> 00:40:01,920
even though i recognize it myself

1136
00:40:05,910 --> 00:40:03,680
sometimes that

1137
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:05,920
that desire to do that it's it's a

1138
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:09,040
temptation we all feel because again

1139
00:40:13,030 --> 00:40:11,440
when you can make your environment feel

1140
00:40:15,349 --> 00:40:13,040
familiar it feels safer that's

1141
00:40:17,030 --> 00:40:15,359
inherently a good feeling right the more

1142
00:40:18,390 --> 00:40:17,040
you can sort of hold that at arm's

1143
00:40:19,750 --> 00:40:18,400
length and say

1144
00:40:20,870 --> 00:40:19,760
and again i think this comes down to

1145
00:40:23,030 --> 00:40:20,880
some sort of

1146
00:40:25,030 --> 00:40:23,040
energetic spiritual core a person has

1147
00:40:27,030 --> 00:40:25,040
that allows them to hold other things

1148
00:40:29,190 --> 00:40:27,040
more lightly i think

1149
00:40:30,870 --> 00:40:29,200
sort of some of my background in sort of

1150
00:40:33,670 --> 00:40:30,880
buddhist tradition and having sort of

1151
00:40:36,230 --> 00:40:33,680
more of a um don't hold on to anything

1152
00:40:39,030 --> 00:40:36,240
good or bad too tightly you know like

1153
00:40:41,030 --> 00:40:39,040
law of non-attachment kind of thing um

1154
00:40:43,349 --> 00:40:41,040
really helps with this because

1155
00:40:45,829 --> 00:40:43,359
um and i see i really do like

1156
00:40:48,069 --> 00:40:45,839
functionally daily feel like everything

1157
00:40:49,910 --> 00:40:48,079
is passing you know that everything is

1158
00:40:52,390 --> 00:40:49,920
one season to another season including

1159
00:40:54,870 --> 00:40:52,400
this lifetime therefore

1160
00:40:56,630 --> 00:40:54,880
i i have less of a need i think to cling

1161
00:40:59,190 --> 00:40:56,640
to something that feels certain than

1162
00:41:00,790 --> 00:40:59,200
most people so i i feel like i like you

1163
00:41:02,710 --> 00:41:00,800
mentioned earlier have more of a plastic

1164
00:41:05,030 --> 00:41:02,720
view towards these kind of things

1165
00:41:06,470 --> 00:41:05,040
and in terms of trying to move forward

1166
00:41:08,309 --> 00:41:06,480
and understanding it more when you

1167
00:41:10,470 --> 00:41:08,319
really because what's amazing is when

1168
00:41:12,150 --> 00:41:10,480
you look back at interviews from the 70s

1169
00:41:13,750 --> 00:41:12,160
80s 90s

1170
00:41:15,349 --> 00:41:13,760
it's the same questions over and over

1171
00:41:17,030 --> 00:41:15,359
again you know like we're not in some

1172
00:41:18,069 --> 00:41:17,040
ways we're not getting much further

1173
00:41:20,710 --> 00:41:18,079
because

1174
00:41:22,470 --> 00:41:20,720
again we want to cling to these really

1175
00:41:25,190 --> 00:41:22,480
simplistic views

1176
00:41:28,710 --> 00:41:25,200
um so yeah absolutely one of these

1177
00:41:30,550 --> 00:41:28,720
species certainly would have uh massive

1178
00:41:33,349 --> 00:41:30,560
complexity just like human beings would

1179
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:33,359
have why wouldn't they you know and

1180
00:41:37,750 --> 00:41:34,960
they would have their own evolutionary

1181
00:41:40,309 --> 00:41:37,760
track and you'd have a huge genetic

1182
00:41:42,309 --> 00:41:40,319
assortment uh in their background just

1183
00:41:44,470 --> 00:41:42,319
like we do in ours and you'd have

1184
00:41:47,589 --> 00:41:44,480
cultural aspects that come in that are

1185
00:41:49,910 --> 00:41:47,599
going to vary depending on you know

1186
00:41:52,309 --> 00:41:49,920
where that particular individual from

1187
00:41:54,390 --> 00:41:52,319
that species uh is from those kind of

1188
00:41:55,910 --> 00:41:54,400
things i mean again even this tendency

1189
00:41:58,230 --> 00:41:55,920
to want to make some of these alien

1190
00:42:01,589 --> 00:41:58,240
species borg like you know or like

1191
00:42:03,270 --> 00:42:01,599
insect-like i think again is um is

1192
00:42:05,750 --> 00:42:03,280
getting into that temptation that it's

1193
00:42:07,510 --> 00:42:05,760
simpler it's easier to just say

1194
00:42:10,069 --> 00:42:07,520
they're they're they're about one thing

1195
00:42:12,069 --> 00:42:10,079
and we can name it sure okay i was just

1196
00:42:14,470 --> 00:42:12,079
going to say i'm sorry nathan no please

1197
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:14,480
the problem is that time is our time our

1198
00:42:18,470 --> 00:42:16,560
time on earth is so short

1199
00:42:20,550 --> 00:42:18,480
compared to the age of the earth that

1200
00:42:22,470 --> 00:42:20,560
you were saying like since the 90s

1201
00:42:24,230 --> 00:42:22,480
that's like not even like the blink of

1202
00:42:26,870 --> 00:42:24,240
an eye like

1203
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:26,880
in in the span of time so i think these

1204
00:42:30,950 --> 00:42:28,560
questions will be answered i just don't

1205
00:42:32,150 --> 00:42:30,960
know if we're going to be a lot alive

1206
00:42:34,550 --> 00:42:32,160
when they are

1207
00:42:37,190 --> 00:42:34,560
yeah unfortunately no i mean that's an

1208
00:42:38,309 --> 00:42:37,200
excellent point our our lifetimes are so

1209
00:42:40,630 --> 00:42:38,319
ephemeral

1210
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:40,640
uh and by the time that we

1211
00:42:45,510 --> 00:42:43,359
i mean if some of us even do

1212
00:42:47,190 --> 00:42:45,520
if we get to a place of wisdom

1213
00:42:49,750 --> 00:42:47,200
uh and reflection

1214
00:42:52,150 --> 00:42:49,760
you know the the sun is setting you know

1215
00:42:54,470 --> 00:42:52,160
so it's difficult to uh to create a

1216
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,480
lasting foundation of knowledge and you

1217
00:42:57,510 --> 00:42:56,480
know we we do our best to do that

1218
00:42:59,670 --> 00:42:57,520
through

1219
00:43:02,309 --> 00:42:59,680
the sharing of knowledge and philosophy

1220
00:43:04,309 --> 00:43:02,319
and story and whatnot but even even

1221
00:43:07,030 --> 00:43:04,319
still the lived experience is the most

1222
00:43:08,630 --> 00:43:07,040
valuable experience um so you can you

1223
00:43:10,390 --> 00:43:08,640
can learn and you can read all you want

1224
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,400
but you know living it out in your life

1225
00:43:15,430 --> 00:43:13,119
is the is the greatest sort of teacher

1226
00:43:17,670 --> 00:43:15,440
that you can have and you know coming

1227
00:43:19,829 --> 00:43:17,680
back to some religious themes too about

1228
00:43:21,670 --> 00:43:19,839
what you touched on

1229
00:43:22,470 --> 00:43:21,680
we have to sort of push back against

1230
00:43:24,150 --> 00:43:22,480
this

1231
00:43:27,109 --> 00:43:24,160
wish fulfillment that i think we see a

1232
00:43:29,990 --> 00:43:27,119
lot of in ufology that we can map onto

1233
00:43:32,470 --> 00:43:30,000
things like a desire for salvation

1234
00:43:33,910 --> 00:43:32,480
uh a desire for oneness

1235
00:43:36,550 --> 00:43:33,920
uh a

1236
00:43:37,670 --> 00:43:36,560
a seeking of revelation you know all of

1237
00:43:39,510 --> 00:43:37,680
these are

1238
00:43:42,069 --> 00:43:39,520
very

1239
00:43:43,990 --> 00:43:42,079
strong religious concepts um where the

1240
00:43:45,990 --> 00:43:44,000
the veil is lifted and all truth is

1241
00:43:48,950 --> 00:43:46,000
revealed you know these are things that

1242
00:43:51,190 --> 00:43:48,960
i think all humans yearn for because we

1243
00:43:53,750 --> 00:43:51,200
we are faced every day

1244
00:43:54,390 --> 00:43:53,760
with the end we're faced with you know

1245
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:54,400
the

1246
00:44:01,270 --> 00:43:58,880
looking for meaning uh and everywhere we

1247
00:44:03,030 --> 00:44:01,280
can every place we can find it

1248
00:44:04,710 --> 00:44:03,040
um

1249
00:44:07,510 --> 00:44:04,720
you know what i want to talk about too

1250
00:44:09,349 --> 00:44:07,520
next i guess is um

1251
00:44:10,870 --> 00:44:09,359
what

1252
00:44:12,470 --> 00:44:10,880
you know for folks who are coming to the

1253
00:44:13,990 --> 00:44:12,480
subject pretty recently and i i'd like

1254
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:14,000
to hope that there are

1255
00:44:18,710 --> 00:44:15,920
a lot you know who are who are turning

1256
00:44:20,710 --> 00:44:18,720
onto this topic now for the first time

1257
00:44:21,990 --> 00:44:20,720
are giving it a harder look

1258
00:44:23,829 --> 00:44:22,000
what's some advice that you would give

1259
00:44:25,670 --> 00:44:23,839
to folks who

1260
00:44:27,270 --> 00:44:25,680
maybe could use ufo twitter as a good

1261
00:44:29,430 --> 00:44:27,280
sort of microcosm you know who are

1262
00:44:32,870 --> 00:44:29,440
navigating that that space

1263
00:44:34,390 --> 00:44:32,880
how does someone um inoculate themselves

1264
00:44:36,550 --> 00:44:34,400
uh to

1265
00:44:39,109 --> 00:44:36,560
falling into kind of traps or or

1266
00:44:40,710 --> 00:44:39,119
cyclical uh thoughts patterns you know

1267
00:44:43,030 --> 00:44:40,720
where they get locked into a certain

1268
00:44:44,470 --> 00:44:43,040
thing or would you take the position of

1269
00:44:47,270 --> 00:44:44,480
you know what like let the journey

1270
00:44:51,030 --> 00:44:47,280
unfold as it may

1271
00:44:52,950 --> 00:44:51,040
yeah good question i think um

1272
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:52,960
it depends a lot on the people and their

1273
00:44:56,390 --> 00:44:55,440
background and again how much they tend

1274
00:44:58,550 --> 00:44:56,400
to

1275
00:45:00,470 --> 00:44:58,560
hold their perspectives lightly or not

1276
00:45:02,470 --> 00:45:00,480
if you are the kind of person who has

1277
00:45:04,150 --> 00:45:02,480
not developed the tendency yet to hold

1278
00:45:06,550 --> 00:45:04,160
your perspective lightly

1279
00:45:08,150 --> 00:45:06,560
so for instance in my case

1280
00:45:09,910 --> 00:45:08,160
because i've sort of transitioned

1281
00:45:12,150 --> 00:45:09,920
through several different world views

1282
00:45:14,950 --> 00:45:12,160
different paradigms in my lifetime

1283
00:45:17,109 --> 00:45:14,960
i now hold whatever i happen to be

1284
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:17,119
arriving at now much more lightly

1285
00:45:21,910 --> 00:45:19,760
because when i know i wouldn't even

1286
00:45:25,349 --> 00:45:21,920
recognize who i am today if i were to

1287
00:45:27,910 --> 00:45:25,359
meet myself 20 years ago then then uh

1288
00:45:29,510 --> 00:45:27,920
how can i take now so seriously and yet

1289
00:45:31,270 --> 00:45:29,520
what what's really fascinating is when

1290
00:45:34,390 --> 00:45:31,280
you actually research that you find that

1291
00:45:36,870 --> 00:45:34,400
people again they unconsciously make

1292
00:45:39,510 --> 00:45:36,880
that mistake they think okay who i am

1293
00:45:41,030 --> 00:45:39,520
now i finally have arrived it doesn't

1294
00:45:43,270 --> 00:45:41,040
occur to them that they'll be as

1295
00:45:45,349 --> 00:45:43,280
different in 10 years or they might be

1296
00:45:47,109 --> 00:45:45,359
from now as they are now from 10 years

1297
00:45:48,390 --> 00:45:47,119
ago especially if they keep moving and

1298
00:45:51,349 --> 00:45:48,400
are actually

1299
00:45:53,510 --> 00:45:51,359
honestly objectively taking a new data

1300
00:45:54,550 --> 00:45:53,520
and trying to grow and learn i mean

1301
00:45:56,390 --> 00:45:54,560
one of the things i find most

1302
00:45:58,390 --> 00:45:56,400
fascinating is how

1303
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:58,400
some people i grew up with

1304
00:46:01,829 --> 00:46:00,240
pretty much are the same as they were

1305
00:46:04,630 --> 00:46:01,839
then you know they haven't changed much

1306
00:46:06,309 --> 00:46:04,640
since we were teenagers and

1307
00:46:07,270 --> 00:46:06,319
that's really hard for me to understand

1308
00:46:08,230 --> 00:46:07,280
because

1309
00:46:09,910 --> 00:46:08,240
um

1310
00:46:12,870 --> 00:46:09,920
for me it's about always taking in more

1311
00:46:15,589 --> 00:46:12,880
information learning growing adapting my

1312
00:46:18,069 --> 00:46:15,599
perspective constantly

1313
00:46:21,430 --> 00:46:18,079
so i think that again that just hints at

1314
00:46:23,270 --> 00:46:21,440
how much we really prefer familiarity

1315
00:46:25,430 --> 00:46:23,280
simplicity

1316
00:46:27,589 --> 00:46:25,440
but in terms of the phenomenon what's

1317
00:46:28,950 --> 00:46:27,599
interesting is people might sort of come

1318
00:46:31,270 --> 00:46:28,960
in because they heard about the nimitz

1319
00:46:33,190 --> 00:46:31,280
you know and uh

1320
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:33,200
and they might initially go wow cool you

1321
00:46:37,109 --> 00:46:35,440
know um is there gonna be an

1322
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:37,119
independence day kind of event you know

1323
00:46:39,990 --> 00:46:38,560
like they'll think about these hollywood

1324
00:46:41,990 --> 00:46:40,000
movies they've seen

1325
00:46:43,990 --> 00:46:42,000
and they'll come in with that with all

1326
00:46:45,589 --> 00:46:44,000
sorts of cultural assumptions right that

1327
00:46:48,150 --> 00:46:45,599
have been fed to them

1328
00:46:50,390 --> 00:46:48,160
unconsciously again you know uh diana

1329
00:46:53,349 --> 00:46:50,400
pasalka talked about this that we

1330
00:46:54,710 --> 00:46:53,359
sort of uh unconsciously

1331
00:46:56,470 --> 00:46:54,720
inhale

1332
00:46:57,589 --> 00:46:56,480
this sort of cultural baggage when it

1333
00:46:59,990 --> 00:46:57,599
comes to

1334
00:47:02,150 --> 00:47:00,000
um the ufo phenomenon and it's back

1335
00:47:05,349 --> 00:47:02,160
there and over a period of time we can't

1336
00:47:07,349 --> 00:47:05,359
even uh anymore distinguish between if

1337
00:47:08,710 --> 00:47:07,359
we heard something in a movie or if it

1338
00:47:10,710 --> 00:47:08,720
was actually an experience you're

1339
00:47:12,390 --> 00:47:10,720
supposedly giving a real account so

1340
00:47:15,270 --> 00:47:12,400
right we confuse that over time which

1341
00:47:16,790 --> 00:47:15,280
makes it even more complicated um and on

1342
00:47:19,910 --> 00:47:16,800
top of that

1343
00:47:21,750 --> 00:47:19,920
because science uh has been

1344
00:47:25,829 --> 00:47:21,760
you know

1345
00:47:27,910 --> 00:47:25,839
it's just been a

1346
00:47:29,990 --> 00:47:27,920
territory they're not allowed to go to

1347
00:47:31,670 --> 00:47:30,000
you know they can't investigate this so

1348
00:47:33,910 --> 00:47:31,680
what that mean or at least in their in

1349
00:47:36,470 --> 00:47:33,920
their minds they can't because again

1350
00:47:37,990 --> 00:47:36,480
it's tricky it it

1351
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:38,000
brings up so many questions about the

1352
00:47:40,710 --> 00:47:40,000
assumptions behind the scientific method

1353
00:47:45,910 --> 00:47:40,720
and

1354
00:47:48,790 --> 00:47:45,920
that that's scary uh so you have all

1355
00:47:50,950 --> 00:47:48,800
sorts of dogmatic um positions with even

1356
00:47:52,950 --> 00:47:50,960
and within science and within academia

1357
00:47:55,349 --> 00:47:52,960
which just make it so that they have not

1358
00:47:57,510 --> 00:47:55,359
been part of this discussion and because

1359
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:57,520
of that you have a lack of scientific

1360
00:48:02,230 --> 00:48:00,640
rigor that is useful you know it won't

1361
00:48:04,630 --> 00:48:02,240
get you all the way but at least get you

1362
00:48:06,390 --> 00:48:04,640
to first base you know and but we don't

1363
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:06,400
even have that so we have people coming

1364
00:48:08,230 --> 00:48:07,119
in

1365
00:48:11,190 --> 00:48:08,240
uh

1366
00:48:13,750 --> 00:48:11,200
and adopting views without ever having

1367
00:48:15,430 --> 00:48:13,760
to go through the rigor of being tested

1368
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:15,440
really being examined being looked at

1369
00:48:19,349 --> 00:48:16,720
objectively

1370
00:48:20,710 --> 00:48:19,359
and so you you do tend to get this

1371
00:48:22,549 --> 00:48:20,720
a lot like religion you kind of get

1372
00:48:24,470 --> 00:48:22,559
people just adopting all like you know

1373
00:48:26,950 --> 00:48:24,480
from your christian background you know

1374
00:48:28,950 --> 00:48:26,960
are you baptist are you presbyterian are

1375
00:48:30,870 --> 00:48:28,960
you give a vineyard background you know

1376
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:30,880
are you charismatic i mean there's so

1377
00:48:35,750 --> 00:48:32,640
many flavors right and so you go back to

1378
00:48:38,150 --> 00:48:35,760
the 1950s 1960s where christianity was

1379
00:48:40,390 --> 00:48:38,160
more just a dominant uh everyday

1380
00:48:42,790 --> 00:48:40,400
experience for most americans right and

1381
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:42,800
you had every flavor you can imagine you

1382
00:48:45,430 --> 00:48:44,480
know oh you're that kind of baptist well

1383
00:48:47,190 --> 00:48:45,440
i'm not sure you're going to heaven

1384
00:48:49,030 --> 00:48:47,200
because it's kind of baptist right

1385
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:49,040
that's right that's just a baptist let

1386
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:51,760
alone everybody else so um

1387
00:48:56,549 --> 00:48:55,200
yeah it's it's uh i would say to people

1388
00:48:58,870 --> 00:48:56,559
try to come in

1389
00:49:01,270 --> 00:48:58,880
uh with an open mind

1390
00:49:03,349 --> 00:49:01,280
try to do your best not to make any star

1391
00:49:05,750 --> 00:49:03,359
any conclusions until you've like spent

1392
00:49:07,109 --> 00:49:05,760
a year just listening and i know that's

1393
00:49:08,390 --> 00:49:07,119
going to be difficult for most people

1394
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:08,400
and most people are not used to going

1395
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:10,240
through their lives that way yeah but

1396
00:49:13,270 --> 00:49:11,760
that's what i would suggest because

1397
00:49:14,829 --> 00:49:13,280
you're going to find yourself you know

1398
00:49:17,589 --> 00:49:14,839
ping-ponging around

1399
00:49:19,430 --> 00:49:17,599
otherwise um and i think the challenge

1400
00:49:20,390 --> 00:49:19,440
too is that just like in our society

1401
00:49:22,870 --> 00:49:20,400
today

1402
00:49:25,030 --> 00:49:22,880
you get these echo chambers right where

1403
00:49:26,470 --> 00:49:25,040
one group tunes into fox news and says

1404
00:49:28,470 --> 00:49:26,480
this is my data set and my

1405
00:49:30,390 --> 00:49:28,480
interpretation of reality somebody else

1406
00:49:31,750 --> 00:49:30,400
watches cnn and gets their own data set

1407
00:49:33,670 --> 00:49:31,760
and their their interpretation of

1408
00:49:35,670 --> 00:49:33,680
reality and those two are completely

1409
00:49:37,750 --> 00:49:35,680
living in different realities you get

1410
00:49:39,670 --> 00:49:37,760
some of that within ufo twitter i

1411
00:49:41,750 --> 00:49:39,680
sometimes see people say

1412
00:49:42,950 --> 00:49:41,760
man ufo twitter is really mean today and

1413
00:49:46,230 --> 00:49:42,960
i'm thinking to myself well doesn't that

1414
00:49:48,470 --> 00:49:46,240
depend on how you curate your

1415
00:49:50,309 --> 00:49:48,480
i mean what is ufo twitter you know

1416
00:49:51,829 --> 00:49:50,319
that's right uh um so you've got all

1417
00:49:54,069 --> 00:49:51,839
these different sort of echo chambers

1418
00:49:56,470 --> 00:49:54,079
within that everybody who you know

1419
00:49:58,549 --> 00:49:56,480
believes that these are

1420
00:49:59,829 --> 00:49:58,559
demonic and they mean us harm to the

1421
00:50:01,430 --> 00:49:59,839
love and light people and they don't

1422
00:50:03,109 --> 00:50:01,440
really talk to each other

1423
00:50:05,190 --> 00:50:03,119
but i will say that if people come in

1424
00:50:06,470 --> 00:50:05,200
even with the nuts and bolts kind of

1425
00:50:08,870 --> 00:50:06,480
mentality

1426
00:50:10,630 --> 00:50:08,880
you can't go very far in before you

1427
00:50:13,190 --> 00:50:10,640
start getting into the consciousness

1428
00:50:15,109 --> 00:50:13,200
manipulation piece and the perception

1429
00:50:16,230 --> 00:50:15,119
disparities that people have that

1430
00:50:18,710 --> 00:50:16,240
suddenly

1431
00:50:20,309 --> 00:50:18,720
pretty quickly if you honestly follow

1432
00:50:21,910 --> 00:50:20,319
the data begin to

1433
00:50:23,510 --> 00:50:21,920
be get more questions about the nature

1434
00:50:25,430 --> 00:50:23,520
of ultimate reality so that's that's

1435
00:50:27,829 --> 00:50:25,440
where you end up going if you're honest

1436
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:27,839
if you just keep following the data

1437
00:50:31,109 --> 00:50:29,760
do you think there's both flavors do you

1438
00:50:35,670 --> 00:50:31,119
find that

1439
00:50:37,990 --> 00:50:36,950
trying to

1440
00:50:40,470 --> 00:50:38,000
perhaps

1441
00:50:41,430 --> 00:50:40,480
fix how we're treating the planet and

1442
00:50:44,390 --> 00:50:41,440
and

1443
00:50:47,030 --> 00:50:44,400
interested in our welfare or some that

1444
00:50:48,390 --> 00:50:47,040
are indifferent or and or

1445
00:50:51,190 --> 00:50:48,400
some that are

1446
00:50:54,069 --> 00:50:51,200
maybe not friendly toward us to what

1447
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:54,079
flavors do you see based on your

1448
00:50:57,270 --> 00:50:55,680
analysis

1449
00:50:58,950 --> 00:50:57,280
yeah i appreciate even how you gave

1450
00:51:00,470 --> 00:50:58,960
those different versions there because i

1451
00:51:01,990 --> 00:51:00,480
definitely think

1452
00:51:03,510 --> 00:51:02,000
what i tend to say is my answer is all

1453
00:51:05,190 --> 00:51:03,520
of the above

1454
00:51:07,190 --> 00:51:05,200
and what i mean and more you know so if

1455
00:51:08,790 --> 00:51:07,200
you if you give me uh you know 15

1456
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:08,800
choices i'll probably take off most of

1457
00:51:12,790 --> 00:51:11,520
those and then leave a room for a bunch

1458
00:51:14,230 --> 00:51:12,800
that we haven't even considered yet that

1459
00:51:16,950 --> 00:51:14,240
we don't even have the

1460
00:51:18,790 --> 00:51:16,960
imagination potential to conceive of yet

1461
00:51:20,870 --> 00:51:18,800
um i think that

1462
00:51:23,990 --> 00:51:20,880
again part of the problem is part of the

1463
00:51:25,750 --> 00:51:24,000
challenge is people try and

1464
00:51:28,390 --> 00:51:25,760
draw conclusions as if this is one

1465
00:51:30,309 --> 00:51:28,400
phenomenon right and we sort of you know

1466
00:51:32,309 --> 00:51:30,319
for convenience sake we say the ufo

1467
00:51:34,790 --> 00:51:32,319
phenomenon which is a singular term

1468
00:51:36,790 --> 00:51:34,800
right but this is definitely phenomena

1469
00:51:38,230 --> 00:51:36,800
and i think there's

1470
00:51:39,829 --> 00:51:38,240
different groups and what makes it even

1471
00:51:41,750 --> 00:51:39,839
more complex is they're not all

1472
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:41,760
necessarily extraterrestrial in the way

1473
00:51:45,270 --> 00:51:42,960
that we think about that right and

1474
00:51:47,349 --> 00:51:45,280
that's that's become a big part of the

1475
00:51:49,349 --> 00:51:47,359
um conversation too and even someone

1476
00:51:51,190 --> 00:51:49,359
like luis elizondo who

1477
00:51:53,270 --> 00:51:51,200
you know coming from a pretty straight

1478
00:51:55,510 --> 00:51:53,280
line military background has said you

1479
00:51:57,829 --> 00:51:55,520
know read chains of the sea you know

1480
00:51:59,670 --> 00:51:57,839
think about the interdimensional aspect

1481
00:52:02,150 --> 00:51:59,680
what if they've been here all along what

1482
00:52:03,430 --> 00:52:02,160
about mankind's plural you know like all

1483
00:52:05,990 --> 00:52:03,440
these things that he's sort of hints

1484
00:52:07,190 --> 00:52:06,000
that he's dropped to try and expand the

1485
00:52:09,750 --> 00:52:07,200
conversation

1486
00:52:11,589 --> 00:52:09,760
in breadth before we go depth just let's

1487
00:52:12,790 --> 00:52:11,599
like let's let's open end this a little

1488
00:52:14,069 --> 00:52:12,800
bit more in terms of what could be

1489
00:52:16,069 --> 00:52:14,079
involved here

1490
00:52:17,589 --> 00:52:16,079
and from my perspective

1491
00:52:19,109 --> 00:52:17,599
so you've got yeah you've got different

1492
00:52:21,030 --> 00:52:19,119
groups and just like in human

1493
00:52:22,470 --> 00:52:21,040
civilization like i said earlier

1494
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,480
disclosure is going to be complicated

1495
00:52:25,349 --> 00:52:23,760
because you have people with very

1496
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:25,359
different worldviews

1497
00:52:29,109 --> 00:52:27,040
who have a different developmental lens

1498
00:52:30,829 --> 00:52:29,119
which colors everything they see about

1499
00:52:34,790 --> 00:52:30,839
reality right

1500
00:52:36,630 --> 00:52:34,800
um you have that just within our species

1501
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,640
now you've got these different species

1502
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:37,920
maybe even within those different

1503
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:39,839
species just like ours you might have

1504
00:52:43,910 --> 00:52:41,440
different developmental lenses right

1505
00:52:46,630 --> 00:52:43,920
again like like you touched on nathan we

1506
00:52:49,190 --> 00:52:46,640
had this tendency to to really truncate

1507
00:52:50,150 --> 00:52:49,200
that and say they're like this which you

1508
00:52:53,030 --> 00:52:50,160
know

1509
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:53,040
around the world and i've done some of

1510
00:52:58,390 --> 00:52:56,559
that um you quickly realize there's some

1511
00:53:00,390 --> 00:52:58,400
pretty big differences culturally and

1512
00:53:01,990 --> 00:53:00,400
the norms you know just the

1513
00:53:03,670 --> 00:53:02,000
the basic assumptions about how you're

1514
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:03,680
supposed to behave as human being varies

1515
00:53:07,829 --> 00:53:05,760
from culture to culture so apply that to

1516
00:53:09,270 --> 00:53:07,839
these different species and then take

1517
00:53:11,030 --> 00:53:09,280
into a fact that you have different

1518
00:53:14,069 --> 00:53:11,040
species with completely different

1519
00:53:16,790 --> 00:53:14,079
evolutionary backgrounds um who might

1520
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:16,800
experience time and reality very

1521
00:53:22,069 --> 00:53:19,680
differently than us you know and

1522
00:53:24,069 --> 00:53:22,079
we can touch on maybe later how even how

1523
00:53:26,150 --> 00:53:24,079
what gets even more complex and

1524
00:53:29,349 --> 00:53:26,160
fascinating to me is how even

1525
00:53:33,190 --> 00:53:29,359
human beings have a more uh

1526
00:53:35,030 --> 00:53:33,200
broad deep uh modality when they're in

1527
00:53:37,349 --> 00:53:35,040
the presence of these others you know so

1528
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:37,359
even who we understand ourselves to be

1529
00:53:42,309 --> 00:53:39,680
becomes much more complex and i then i

1530
00:53:44,230 --> 00:53:42,319
think we're it's more complex than we

1531
00:53:46,309 --> 00:53:44,240
can answer based on the data we have

1532
00:53:48,710 --> 00:53:46,319
available to us in our waking experience

1533
00:53:51,270 --> 00:53:48,720
day to day which makes it really complex

1534
00:53:53,190 --> 00:53:51,280
but yeah absolutely i i think that

1535
00:53:55,190 --> 00:53:53,200
there are different groups some are

1536
00:53:57,670 --> 00:53:55,200
highly advanced from a consciousness

1537
00:54:00,069 --> 00:53:57,680
point of view and really are trying to

1538
00:54:03,109 --> 00:54:00,079
help facilitate our our evolution both

1539
00:54:05,270 --> 00:54:03,119
interior and exterior uh and i think

1540
00:54:07,030 --> 00:54:05,280
there's definitely evidence that since

1541
00:54:10,710 --> 00:54:07,040
the dawn of the atomic age there's been

1542
00:54:13,430 --> 00:54:10,720
an optic in the level of intervention

1543
00:54:14,790 --> 00:54:13,440
because of our self-destructive nature

1544
00:54:16,150 --> 00:54:14,800
and just how

1545
00:54:19,030 --> 00:54:16,160
you know we're on a precipice of

1546
00:54:21,990 --> 00:54:19,040
self-destruction basically

1547
00:54:23,670 --> 00:54:22,000
so yeah different groups and different

1548
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:23,680
different agendas absolutely and

1549
00:54:27,270 --> 00:54:25,440
different levels of consciousness

1550
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:27,280
development all that's

1551
00:54:30,950 --> 00:54:28,720
all that's mixed in and that's why it's

1552
00:54:32,870 --> 00:54:30,960
that much more complex

1553
00:54:35,109 --> 00:54:32,880
well since we've gotten into some uh

1554
00:54:37,670 --> 00:54:35,119
speculative territory

1555
00:54:39,349 --> 00:54:37,680
um i i mean i i think this is great it's

1556
00:54:41,270 --> 00:54:39,359
a great transition so

1557
00:54:43,510 --> 00:54:41,280
you know modern humans are a couple of

1558
00:54:45,030 --> 00:54:43,520
hundred thousand years old right and as

1559
00:54:46,069 --> 00:54:45,040
far as we know

1560
00:54:48,870 --> 00:54:46,079
um

1561
00:54:51,510 --> 00:54:48,880
uh civilization really did not emerge

1562
00:54:53,270 --> 00:54:51,520
until the last few thousand of those

1563
00:54:55,270 --> 00:54:53,280
couple hundred thousand years

1564
00:54:58,069 --> 00:54:55,280
um do you see

1565
00:54:59,829 --> 00:54:58,079
uh the hand of the phenomena in that uh

1566
00:55:02,470 --> 00:54:59,839
in that transition do you see the hand

1567
00:55:04,470 --> 00:55:02,480
of the phenomena in uh in the 20th

1568
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:04,480
century and with the advent of flight

1569
00:55:08,390 --> 00:55:06,079
and and space travel and all that kind

1570
00:55:09,750 --> 00:55:08,400
of thing and the birth of the internet

1571
00:55:11,430 --> 00:55:09,760
you know how do you see it playing out

1572
00:55:13,109 --> 00:55:11,440
now

1573
00:55:15,030 --> 00:55:13,119
yeah good question and i would say i

1574
00:55:17,589 --> 00:55:15,040
don't have um

1575
00:55:19,430 --> 00:55:17,599
really hard-line resolved answers or

1576
00:55:20,390 --> 00:55:19,440
perspectives on that i that's one of the

1577
00:55:22,789 --> 00:55:20,400
things i'm

1578
00:55:25,190 --> 00:55:22,799
holding with plasticity

1579
00:55:28,630 --> 00:55:25,200
i think that there's something to this

1580
00:55:30,390 --> 00:55:28,640
idea that whatever

1581
00:55:32,710 --> 00:55:30,400
intervention is involved whatever

1582
00:55:36,230 --> 00:55:32,720
direction is happening

1583
00:55:37,750 --> 00:55:36,240
may largely be um

1584
00:55:40,230 --> 00:55:37,760
happening at a level that we can't even

1585
00:55:41,670 --> 00:55:40,240
perceive and again i think

1586
00:55:43,510 --> 00:55:41,680
one of the

1587
00:55:45,910 --> 00:55:43,520
the biases and the prejudices that

1588
00:55:47,829 --> 00:55:45,920
people bring to this is that they were

1589
00:55:49,589 --> 00:55:47,839
so used to being the top dog on the

1590
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:49,599
block right we're so used to just

1591
00:55:54,150 --> 00:55:51,760
assuming we are the definition of an

1592
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:54,160
intelligent species right that's we

1593
00:55:57,990 --> 00:55:55,839
we've had nothing to compare ourselves

1594
00:56:01,109 --> 00:55:58,000
to we don't we can't talk to you know

1595
00:56:02,710 --> 00:56:01,119
our martian friends who who have a

1596
00:56:04,789 --> 00:56:02,720
similarly advanced society but they have

1597
00:56:05,589 --> 00:56:04,799
some differences and then then compare

1598
00:56:07,670 --> 00:56:05,599
and

1599
00:56:09,829 --> 00:56:07,680
contract we can't right we

1600
00:56:11,990 --> 00:56:09,839
we are the definition of an intelligent

1601
00:56:13,109 --> 00:56:12,000
species in our perspective

1602
00:56:17,750 --> 00:56:13,119
so

1603
00:56:20,150 --> 00:56:17,760
it's very difficult for us to imagine

1604
00:56:22,150 --> 00:56:20,160
even to imagine that there could be a

1605
00:56:24,150 --> 00:56:22,160
species that eclipses us to the same

1606
00:56:26,470 --> 00:56:24,160
degree that we eclipse you know like a

1607
00:56:28,630 --> 00:56:26,480
chimpanzee or something it's it's it's

1608
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:28,640
very difficult for people to go there

1609
00:56:31,190 --> 00:56:30,400
and i was talking to my son

1610
00:56:32,630 --> 00:56:31,200
uh

1611
00:56:33,990 --> 00:56:32,640
a couple days ago and he was i was

1612
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:34,000
talking about

1613
00:56:38,069 --> 00:56:35,680
people who have near-death experiences

1614
00:56:39,510 --> 00:56:38,079
or out-of-body experiences or even who

1615
00:56:41,430 --> 00:56:39,520
contact the phenomenon yes i talked to

1616
00:56:43,430 --> 00:56:41,440
my kids about this now

1617
00:56:45,430 --> 00:56:43,440
and and i said you know sometimes they

1618
00:56:47,109 --> 00:56:45,440
perceive colors that are outside the

1619
00:56:48,630 --> 00:56:47,119
spectrum of what we're used to seeing

1620
00:56:50,950 --> 00:56:48,640
and the second you come back into this

1621
00:56:52,710 --> 00:56:50,960
modality you try and translate ego it's

1622
00:56:55,030 --> 00:56:52,720
sort of off-white but you know that's

1623
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:55,040
not really what it was but you no longer

1624
00:56:59,030 --> 00:56:57,760
even have the apparati to translate that

1625
00:57:00,789 --> 00:56:59,040
properly

1626
00:57:02,630 --> 00:57:00,799
and when his response was but how can

1627
00:57:04,230 --> 00:57:02,640
there be a color that's not what we

1628
00:57:07,109 --> 00:57:04,240
already see like in other words his

1629
00:57:08,630 --> 00:57:07,119
imagination can go there right sure like

1630
00:57:09,990 --> 00:57:08,640
even though we know already there's all

1631
00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:10,000
sorts of parts of the spectrum we just

1632
00:57:14,069 --> 00:57:11,200
don't see right that's why we have night

1633
00:57:16,630 --> 00:57:14,079
vision goggles and whatnot um

1634
00:57:19,109 --> 00:57:16,640
and yet that's what we do we tend to uh

1635
00:57:20,390 --> 00:57:19,119
to make that assumption um

1636
00:57:21,670 --> 00:57:20,400
so

1637
00:57:24,230 --> 00:57:21,680
yeah that's what i would say about that

1638
00:57:26,150 --> 00:57:24,240
well and then what i or i'm curious to

1639
00:57:26,950 --> 00:57:26,160
your thoughts on this so

1640
00:57:32,069 --> 00:57:26,960
if

1641
00:57:34,470 --> 00:57:32,079
may be akin to us like we are to the

1642
00:57:36,630 --> 00:57:34,480
chimpanzee

1643
00:57:37,510 --> 00:57:36,640
how do you

1644
00:57:39,670 --> 00:57:37,520
see

1645
00:57:42,789 --> 00:57:39,680
that relationship playing out

1646
00:57:45,829 --> 00:57:42,799
in a in a meaningful way for humanity

1647
00:57:48,069 --> 00:57:45,839
that that that could be trustworthy

1648
00:57:50,630 --> 00:57:48,079
and what would be

1649
00:57:51,829 --> 00:57:50,640
sort of things you would look for

1650
00:57:54,789 --> 00:57:51,839
to know

1651
00:57:57,430 --> 00:57:54,799
that you could place your trust in

1652
00:58:00,309 --> 00:57:57,440
that intelligence if it's playing you

1653
00:58:03,270 --> 00:58:00,319
know to use a bro a popular term in like

1654
00:58:04,710 --> 00:58:03,280
3d chess or whatever 40 chess you know

1655
00:58:06,069 --> 00:58:04,720
if it's playing that kind of game with

1656
00:58:08,390 --> 00:58:06,079
you how would you know how would you

1657
00:58:10,150 --> 00:58:08,400
really evaluate that it's a great

1658
00:58:12,950 --> 00:58:10,160
question and i think a lot about those

1659
00:58:14,789 --> 00:58:12,960
kind of things exactly uh and

1660
00:58:17,030 --> 00:58:14,799
so this is what i would say a couple

1661
00:58:17,829 --> 00:58:17,040
things because i think that some of them

1662
00:58:22,630 --> 00:58:17,839
are

1663
00:58:24,789 --> 00:58:22,640
chimpanzee

1664
00:58:26,309 --> 00:58:24,799
think about trying to

1665
00:58:27,589 --> 00:58:26,319
say if you're

1666
00:58:28,870 --> 00:58:27,599
you're taking one of the chimpanzee

1667
00:58:29,910 --> 00:58:28,880
because you know they've got some sort

1668
00:58:31,270 --> 00:58:29,920
of

1669
00:58:33,589 --> 00:58:31,280
you know blood clot that you need to

1670
00:58:34,829 --> 00:58:33,599
treat or something like that right

1671
00:58:38,309 --> 00:58:34,839
how are you going to explain that to the

1672
00:58:40,150 --> 00:58:38,319
chimpanzee you just can't right and so

1673
00:58:41,670 --> 00:58:40,160
the chimpanzee is still going to have an

1674
00:58:43,750 --> 00:58:41,680
experience though still going to have an

1675
00:58:45,990 --> 00:58:43,760
interpreted experience right

1676
00:58:47,750 --> 00:58:46,000
and based within its

1677
00:58:50,069 --> 00:58:47,760
paradigm of reality

1678
00:58:51,829 --> 00:58:50,079
same thing for us and i really do think

1679
00:58:53,670 --> 00:58:51,839
part of what's going on here i think

1680
00:58:55,910 --> 00:58:53,680
this is this is sort of a starting point

1681
00:58:57,990 --> 00:58:55,920
i begin with i think

1682
00:59:00,150 --> 00:58:58,000
we tend to approach the phenomenon with

1683
00:59:02,549 --> 00:59:00,160
the assumption that our perspective on

1684
00:59:04,390 --> 00:59:02,559
reality is about 98 right and we've got

1685
00:59:06,470 --> 00:59:04,400
two percent missing right

1686
00:59:07,990 --> 00:59:06,480
even though our own astrophysicists

1687
00:59:10,150 --> 00:59:08,000
admit that

1688
00:59:11,750 --> 00:59:10,160
none of our models of

1689
00:59:13,270 --> 00:59:11,760
astronomy work without something like

1690
00:59:15,430 --> 00:59:13,280
dark matter which we don't even know

1691
00:59:17,109 --> 00:59:15,440
what that is and by the way that's like

1692
00:59:18,710 --> 00:59:17,119
you know 99

1693
00:59:21,030 --> 00:59:18,720
of the universe right right this thing

1694
00:59:23,190 --> 00:59:21,040
that we sort of we sort of go again to

1695
00:59:24,789 --> 00:59:23,200
make ourselves more secure we go yeah we

1696
00:59:26,309 --> 00:59:24,799
understand how the universe works even

1697
00:59:28,470 --> 00:59:26,319
though we have this one category that

1698
00:59:30,549 --> 00:59:28,480
takes up 99 that we don't even really

1699
00:59:31,349 --> 00:59:30,559
know what it is we just know it must be

1700
00:59:33,430 --> 00:59:31,359
there

1701
00:59:35,030 --> 00:59:33,440
uh by default because nothing else would

1702
00:59:37,109 --> 00:59:35,040
work otherwise

1703
00:59:38,710 --> 00:59:37,119
that's that's a huge faith statement

1704
00:59:40,710 --> 00:59:38,720
right we talked about

1705
00:59:42,870 --> 00:59:40,720
um religious dogma

1706
00:59:44,950 --> 00:59:42,880
talk about a promissory note saying we

1707
00:59:47,270 --> 00:59:44,960
we will get this we will know this right

1708
00:59:49,030 --> 00:59:47,280
right that's that's a huge huge

1709
00:59:51,349 --> 00:59:49,040
assumption and most people are flying

1710
00:59:53,589 --> 00:59:51,359
blind on that most astrophysicists won't

1711
00:59:56,549 --> 00:59:53,599
even admit to you that that's

1712
00:59:58,390 --> 00:59:56,559
hilarious basically that that they're

1713
01:00:00,230 --> 00:59:58,400
they're behaving as if we have a really

1714
01:00:02,710 --> 01:00:00,240
strong model of reality when really we

1715
01:00:05,270 --> 01:00:02,720
don't so my perspective is we have maybe

1716
01:00:07,589 --> 01:00:05,280
two percent and we're missing 98

1717
01:00:09,349 --> 01:00:07,599
okay i really do think that's

1718
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:09,359
that may even be overstating it because

1719
01:00:12,950 --> 01:00:10,640
i think this is somewhat like the layers

1720
01:00:15,109 --> 01:00:12,960
of the onion it just keeps on going

1721
01:00:16,789 --> 01:00:15,119
right so the most you can understand is

1722
01:00:18,470 --> 01:00:16,799
a sort of localized layer based on your

1723
01:00:20,150 --> 01:00:18,480
current level of consciousness and your

1724
01:00:21,829 --> 01:00:20,160
interpretation and experience of the

1725
01:00:24,150 --> 01:00:21,839
world which is going to change by the

1726
01:00:25,750 --> 01:00:24,160
way over time right depending on your

1727
01:00:27,349 --> 01:00:25,760
world view and your perspective and your

1728
01:00:29,750 --> 01:00:27,359
evolutionary development

1729
01:00:31,670 --> 01:00:29,760
so all it is to say when people have

1730
01:00:33,510 --> 01:00:31,680
abduction experiences when people have

1731
01:00:35,349 --> 01:00:33,520
these experiences with these others that

1732
01:00:37,349 --> 01:00:35,359
seem to happen in alternate realms of

1733
01:00:39,430 --> 01:00:37,359
existence just like near-death

1734
01:00:40,470 --> 01:00:39,440
experiences and out-of-body experiences

1735
01:00:43,990 --> 01:00:40,480
do

1736
01:00:45,589 --> 01:00:44,000
i think that we are try our brains our

1737
01:00:48,950 --> 01:00:45,599
primitive brains

1738
01:00:52,230 --> 01:00:48,960
our our chimpanzee brains are trying to

1739
01:00:53,670 --> 01:00:52,240
make sense based on on the hooks we have

1740
01:00:56,549 --> 01:00:53,680
in our heads

1741
01:00:58,870 --> 01:00:56,559
of experiences that are so beyond

1742
01:01:00,549 --> 01:00:58,880
that it ends up being massively

1743
01:01:03,349 --> 01:01:00,559
mistranslated i think that's what

1744
01:01:04,789 --> 01:01:03,359
happens and i think actually part of the

1745
01:01:05,670 --> 01:01:04,799
reason why

1746
01:01:07,349 --> 01:01:05,680
um

1747
01:01:09,829 --> 01:01:07,359
again people again because of this

1748
01:01:12,230 --> 01:01:09,839
assumption of uh we are the primary

1749
01:01:13,750 --> 01:01:12,240
intelligence people go well someone's

1750
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:13,760
not telling me the truth is someone's

1751
01:01:17,109 --> 01:01:14,960
abducting me

1752
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,119
in erasing my memory that must be

1753
01:01:20,470 --> 01:01:18,960
negative right right it doesn't occur to

1754
01:01:22,549 --> 01:01:20,480
them just like when we tranquilize a

1755
01:01:25,270 --> 01:01:22,559
monkey or a bear to move it outside of a

1756
01:01:27,430 --> 01:01:25,280
populated area so it doesn't get shot

1757
01:01:29,829 --> 01:01:27,440
uh it's not malevolent it's actually

1758
01:01:31,670 --> 01:01:29,839
benevolent right right um in the same

1759
01:01:34,309 --> 01:01:31,680
way i think that um

1760
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:34,319
there are good reasons why they may be

1761
01:01:39,510 --> 01:01:36,160
doing that i have no problem with that

1762
01:01:41,190 --> 01:01:39,520
and i think it's it's kind of a bizarre

1763
01:01:42,630 --> 01:01:41,200
prejudice human beings have that if

1764
01:01:44,630 --> 01:01:42,640
something's doing if something's doing

1765
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:44,640
something behind your back or without

1766
01:01:49,030 --> 01:01:46,319
your full knowledge that you assume it

1767
01:01:51,670 --> 01:01:49,040
must be bad it must be evil because that

1768
01:01:53,190 --> 01:01:51,680
is based on the assumption to begin with

1769
01:01:54,710 --> 01:01:53,200
that you are of a high enough

1770
01:01:56,470 --> 01:01:54,720
intelligence that you could understand

1771
01:01:57,829 --> 01:01:56,480
it if you wanted to and i really

1772
01:01:58,950 --> 01:01:57,839
questioned that here

1773
01:01:59,670 --> 01:01:58,960
um

1774
01:02:01,109 --> 01:01:59,680
so

1775
01:02:02,789 --> 01:02:01,119
it's answered that's just essentially

1776
01:02:05,109 --> 01:02:02,799
the last answer your last question

1777
01:02:06,549 --> 01:02:05,119
because i think that's really important

1778
01:02:08,150 --> 01:02:06,559
one about how do we know it's

1779
01:02:10,470 --> 01:02:08,160
trustworthy right

1780
01:02:13,029 --> 01:02:10,480
and and for me i look at it like again

1781
01:02:16,710 --> 01:02:13,039
my integral theory background spiral

1782
01:02:18,549 --> 01:02:16,720
dynamics how we see this ever expanding

1783
01:02:21,349 --> 01:02:18,559
circles of inclusion

1784
01:02:23,829 --> 01:02:21,359
circles of self-awareness that are ever

1785
01:02:27,349 --> 01:02:23,839
expanding right so this is predictable

1786
01:02:29,190 --> 01:02:27,359
both for individuals and for entire uh

1787
01:02:30,789 --> 01:02:29,200
societies right that they move in these

1788
01:02:33,349 --> 01:02:30,799
predictable

1789
01:02:34,549 --> 01:02:33,359
ways towards expanding circles of

1790
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:34,559
inclusion

1791
01:02:38,470 --> 01:02:37,200
um that i really do sort of one of my

1792
01:02:39,910 --> 01:02:38,480
assumptions because again i don't think

1793
01:02:41,670 --> 01:02:39,920
we can get out of bed in the morning

1794
01:02:43,589 --> 01:02:41,680
without some assumptions about reality

1795
01:02:45,029 --> 01:02:43,599
it's just this you just have to do that

1796
01:02:46,710 --> 01:02:45,039
to navigate life

1797
01:02:49,829 --> 01:02:46,720
one of mine is

1798
01:02:51,750 --> 01:02:49,839
is that is that cosmic expanding circles

1799
01:02:53,270 --> 01:02:51,760
of inclusion and self-awareness which

1800
01:02:55,910 --> 01:02:53,280
ultimately again from a sort of buddhist

1801
01:02:58,069 --> 01:02:55,920
perspective uh you know consciousness is

1802
01:03:00,789 --> 01:02:58,079
one and it's only illusion that makes

1803
01:03:03,349 --> 01:03:00,799
you think that it's more than that um

1804
01:03:05,349 --> 01:03:03,359
uh because that's the case i assume that

1805
01:03:07,190 --> 01:03:05,359
a more advanced intelligence of which

1806
01:03:09,750 --> 01:03:07,200
some of these are are going to be

1807
01:03:11,270 --> 01:03:09,760
further along so therefore their

1808
01:03:13,750 --> 01:03:11,280
their circle of inclusion is much

1809
01:03:15,349 --> 01:03:13,760
broader than mine right so

1810
01:03:17,990 --> 01:03:15,359
um

1811
01:03:19,990 --> 01:03:18,000
so i i trust that i trust i trust that

1812
01:03:22,069 --> 01:03:20,000
there is this sort of um even though i'm

1813
01:03:24,549 --> 01:03:22,079
not religious in the sense of following

1814
01:03:27,510 --> 01:03:24,559
a particular dogmatic uh religion

1815
01:03:29,109 --> 01:03:27,520
religious perspective i am very much at

1816
01:03:31,270 --> 01:03:29,119
the core had the sense of this sort of

1817
01:03:33,430 --> 01:03:31,280
like uh spiritual heart behind the

1818
01:03:35,990 --> 01:03:33,440
cosmos that's sort of the

1819
01:03:38,630 --> 01:03:36,000
uh the that

1820
01:03:41,349 --> 01:03:38,640
is the impulse of the directionality of

1821
01:03:43,510 --> 01:03:41,359
that expanding circle of inclusion and

1822
01:03:45,510 --> 01:03:43,520
self-awareness that leads to sort of

1823
01:03:47,349 --> 01:03:45,520
this oneness consciousness so that's

1824
01:03:48,950 --> 01:03:47,359
what i trust is again i don't assume

1825
01:03:51,109 --> 01:03:48,960
they're all more advanced than us i

1826
01:03:53,349 --> 01:03:51,119
think some aren't i think some maybe

1827
01:03:55,270 --> 01:03:53,359
just have this sort of inherent

1828
01:03:57,029 --> 01:03:55,280
evolutionary capacity to dimension hop

1829
01:04:00,710 --> 01:03:57,039
and maybe be no more advanced than a

1830
01:04:02,549 --> 01:04:00,720
crocodile but uh but there are some that

1831
01:04:04,150 --> 01:04:02,559
are much more advanced and i trust that

1832
01:04:05,670 --> 01:04:04,160
i trust that sort of cosmic concept

1833
01:04:07,109 --> 01:04:05,680
that's one of the assumptions i bring to

1834
01:04:08,870 --> 01:04:07,119
the to the table

1835
01:04:11,910 --> 01:04:08,880
i think the crocodile one is the one

1836
01:04:13,589 --> 01:04:11,920
that like uh terry what's his name saw

1837
01:04:15,990 --> 01:04:13,599
somebody help me oh no that was the

1838
01:04:18,789 --> 01:04:16,000
manta i'm trying to think what's terry

1839
01:04:21,910 --> 01:04:18,799
the guy who saw the one in arkansas

1840
01:04:24,789 --> 01:04:21,920
the former air force oh loveless

1841
01:04:26,230 --> 01:04:24,799
loveless you guys don't know that story

1842
01:04:29,029 --> 01:04:26,240
well i know that the reptilians in

1843
01:04:30,789 --> 01:04:29,039
general definitely uh

1844
01:04:32,710 --> 01:04:30,799
get are sort of painted in in a negative

1845
01:04:34,710 --> 01:04:32,720
corner although again even there you

1846
01:04:35,990 --> 01:04:34,720
i've heard i've heard uh exceptions to

1847
01:04:38,069 --> 01:04:36,000
the rule so

1848
01:04:39,430 --> 01:04:38,079
um again i think that that hints that

1849
01:04:41,910 --> 01:04:39,440
it's more complicated than we sometimes

1850
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:41,920
think right the reptiles and the mantas

1851
01:04:46,150 --> 01:04:43,440
but this is what i want to say though

1852
01:04:49,029 --> 01:04:46,160
exo that i'll just push back just a

1853
01:04:52,069 --> 01:04:49,039
little bit in from the standpoint of how

1854
01:04:54,390 --> 01:04:52,079
i think we differ from the chimpanzees

1855
01:04:56,710 --> 01:04:54,400
i think technologically speaking

1856
01:05:00,470 --> 01:04:56,720
probably all of them these different

1857
01:05:02,069 --> 01:05:00,480
groups are so far advanced to us that

1858
01:05:03,990 --> 01:05:02,079
um

1859
01:05:06,309 --> 01:05:04,000
you know that it's it's nearly beyond

1860
01:05:08,789 --> 01:05:06,319
belief but i think emotionally and

1861
01:05:10,950 --> 01:05:08,799
intellectually that there are

1862
01:05:12,710 --> 01:05:10,960
people among us and two of them might be

1863
01:05:15,270 --> 01:05:12,720
on this podcast

1864
01:05:17,829 --> 01:05:15,280
uh with me right now neither one of them

1865
01:05:22,470 --> 01:05:19,270
that could

1866
01:05:23,829 --> 01:05:22,480
actually unders could possibly have an

1867
01:05:26,870 --> 01:05:23,839
experience

1868
01:05:30,910 --> 01:05:26,880
and understand what's going on

1869
01:05:33,510 --> 01:05:30,920
without the need of uh enough to be

1870
01:05:35,589 --> 01:05:33,520
anesthetized or something like that

1871
01:05:37,990 --> 01:05:35,599
and be able to

1872
01:05:40,630 --> 01:05:38,000
sort of say okay

1873
01:05:42,390 --> 01:05:40,640
something's happening here and it's

1874
01:05:44,950 --> 01:05:42,400
really weird

1875
01:05:46,470 --> 01:05:44,960
and it might be painful but if i can

1876
01:05:48,470 --> 01:05:46,480
endure the pain

1877
01:05:50,230 --> 01:05:48,480
they can do what they need to do i mean

1878
01:05:51,990 --> 01:05:50,240
look at the experience that travis

1879
01:05:53,829 --> 01:05:52,000
walton had

1880
01:05:56,069 --> 01:05:53,839
and you know i don't know how

1881
01:05:57,910 --> 01:05:56,079
sophisticated or educated a person he

1882
01:06:00,789 --> 01:05:57,920
was but when you listen to him speak

1883
01:06:02,710 --> 01:06:00,799
about it he seems to understand that he

1884
01:06:04,470 --> 01:06:02,720
thinks they healed him from what

1885
01:06:06,710 --> 01:06:04,480
happened with the beam

1886
01:06:09,430 --> 01:06:06,720
that uh that they saw him

1887
01:06:11,750 --> 01:06:09,440
his cohort saw him fall to the ground uh

1888
01:06:13,670 --> 01:06:11,760
when he was hit with that beam

1889
01:06:15,349 --> 01:06:13,680
and so i think

1890
01:06:17,109 --> 01:06:15,359
that's the difference between us and the

1891
01:06:19,270 --> 01:06:17,119
chimpanzees and i'm not saying i don't

1892
01:06:20,870 --> 01:06:19,280
think we're not in evolution of them or

1893
01:06:21,990 --> 01:06:20,880
anything like that because i'm sure we

1894
01:06:23,510 --> 01:06:22,000
we are

1895
01:06:25,510 --> 01:06:23,520
um but

1896
01:06:26,870 --> 01:06:25,520
i think we have the ability to

1897
01:06:29,910 --> 01:06:26,880
understand

1898
01:06:31,589 --> 01:06:29,920
that the chimpanzees don't does that

1899
01:06:33,829 --> 01:06:31,599
make sense i agree with you and i think

1900
01:06:35,190 --> 01:06:33,839
that there are

1901
01:06:37,109 --> 01:06:35,200
so i'd say a few things about that one

1902
01:06:39,510 --> 01:06:37,119
thing i would say is that yeah i think

1903
01:06:40,549 --> 01:06:39,520
um travis walton and other people who

1904
01:06:41,910 --> 01:06:40,559
had

1905
01:06:43,670 --> 01:06:41,920
see one of the things in the data that i

1906
01:06:45,829 --> 01:06:43,680
find fascinating

1907
01:06:48,150 --> 01:06:45,839
is that if you ask people a week after

1908
01:06:50,630 --> 01:06:48,160
they had a contact slash abduction

1909
01:06:52,470 --> 01:06:50,640
experience was it a good experience most

1910
01:06:54,630 --> 01:06:52,480
will say no right

1911
01:06:56,470 --> 01:06:54,640
but you give them 10 years and actually

1912
01:06:58,230 --> 01:06:56,480
the majority will say yes

1913
01:07:00,870 --> 01:06:58,240
they'll say it was still traumatic still

1914
01:07:02,710 --> 01:07:00,880
shocking still discombobulating but they

1915
01:07:04,390 --> 01:07:02,720
wouldn't trade it because it's created a

1916
01:07:06,950 --> 01:07:04,400
sort of like impulse

1917
01:07:09,270 --> 01:07:06,960
uh uh a catalyst for a spiritual

1918
01:07:12,150 --> 01:07:09,280
transformation for them to

1919
01:07:13,670 --> 01:07:12,160
at first crumbling and fracturing their

1920
01:07:15,589 --> 01:07:13,680
understanding of reality but then

1921
01:07:17,109 --> 01:07:15,599
restoring it with this there's something

1922
01:07:18,789 --> 01:07:17,119
much more profound and deeper and

1923
01:07:20,710 --> 01:07:18,799
broader and i do think that's part of

1924
01:07:24,390 --> 01:07:20,720
what's going on here is that

1925
01:07:27,190 --> 01:07:24,400
um part of it is about trying to

1926
01:07:28,950 --> 01:07:27,200
birth us into a a new way of seeing the

1927
01:07:30,470 --> 01:07:28,960
world and in the podcast recently i used

1928
01:07:32,390 --> 01:07:30,480
that analogy i've heard whitley stripper

1929
01:07:34,710 --> 01:07:32,400
use it before that it is like a birthing

1930
01:07:35,990 --> 01:07:34,720
experience we go from this familiar safe

1931
01:07:37,910 --> 01:07:36,000
environment in the womb to suddenly

1932
01:07:40,549 --> 01:07:37,920
we're born it's cold you know we're

1933
01:07:42,390 --> 01:07:40,559
seeing all these strange things we

1934
01:07:43,910 --> 01:07:42,400
you know we start crying right it's just

1935
01:07:45,190 --> 01:07:43,920
discombobulating i think that that is

1936
01:07:47,029 --> 01:07:45,200
something like this

1937
01:07:49,430 --> 01:07:47,039
i also think that

1938
01:07:51,910 --> 01:07:49,440
what i'm getting at is that when when we

1939
01:07:53,589 --> 01:07:51,920
have time to get past that ontological

1940
01:07:55,750 --> 01:07:53,599
shock that we initially have when we

1941
01:07:58,710 --> 01:07:55,760
have these experiences that we think are

1942
01:08:00,309 --> 01:07:58,720
not supposed to happen right um

1943
01:08:02,069 --> 01:08:00,319
and we have enough time to think about

1944
01:08:04,950 --> 01:08:02,079
why did anything really bad happen to me

1945
01:08:06,710 --> 01:08:04,960
was it actually dangerous right right

1946
01:08:08,630 --> 01:08:06,720
and then you start going actually maybe

1947
01:08:11,190 --> 01:08:08,640
this was this was positive and what

1948
01:08:13,430 --> 01:08:11,200
could it mean and so we we we absolutely

1949
01:08:16,070 --> 01:08:13,440
can gather meaning from it i just don't

1950
01:08:18,070 --> 01:08:16,080
think we it's like the onion thing it's

1951
01:08:18,870 --> 01:08:18,080
not that the you know so for instance

1952
01:08:23,430 --> 01:08:18,880
when

1953
01:08:25,910 --> 01:08:23,440
has an interpretation of the world it's

1954
01:08:27,990 --> 01:08:25,920
not that it's wrong it's just incomplete

1955
01:08:29,910 --> 01:08:28,000
right it's partial so i think we can

1956
01:08:32,709 --> 01:08:29,920
have partial understanding much more

1957
01:08:34,550 --> 01:08:32,719
than a chimpanzee for sure and we can we

1958
01:08:35,430 --> 01:08:34,560
have some hooks we can hang it on i just

1959
01:08:36,550 --> 01:08:35,440
think

1960
01:08:40,070 --> 01:08:36,560
reality

1961
01:08:40,950 --> 01:08:40,080
in inevitably eternally is that kind of

1962
01:08:43,430 --> 01:08:40,960
um

1963
01:08:45,749 --> 01:08:43,440
onion situation where there's always

1964
01:08:46,550 --> 01:08:45,759
layers beyond what we can understand we

1965
01:08:49,189 --> 01:08:46,560
can

1966
01:08:50,709 --> 01:08:49,199
interpret it ground it experience it in

1967
01:08:54,390 --> 01:08:50,719
a certain way that makes sense for who

1968
01:08:55,990 --> 01:08:54,400
we are but what i often am amazed by

1969
01:08:58,470 --> 01:08:56,000
even some perspectives that i i have

1970
01:09:01,110 --> 01:08:58,480
today wouldn't make sense to me 10 years

1971
01:09:04,149 --> 01:09:01,120
ago you know what i mean to myself 10

1972
01:09:06,309 --> 01:09:04,159
years ago same genetic background same

1973
01:09:08,070 --> 01:09:06,319
you know cultural history and if that

1974
01:09:10,870 --> 01:09:08,080
can happen to one individual and one

1975
01:09:13,990 --> 01:09:10,880
human being in 10 years then what does a

1976
01:09:16,229 --> 01:09:14,000
species that might be a billion years

1977
01:09:19,110 --> 01:09:16,239
older than us look like like at that

1978
01:09:20,950 --> 01:09:19,120
point and like you just said nathan

1979
01:09:23,189 --> 01:09:20,960
we're talking about modern civilization

1980
01:09:25,829 --> 01:09:23,199
being a few thousand years old

1981
01:09:28,709 --> 01:09:25,839
a cosmic blink of the eye right

1982
01:09:29,910 --> 01:09:28,719
you add a billion years

1983
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:29,920
and suddenly

1984
01:09:34,149 --> 01:09:31,920
if if we're honest it's just a blank

1985
01:09:36,070 --> 01:09:34,159
slate like we just our imagination i

1986
01:09:38,309 --> 01:09:36,080
can't even imagine that right when you

1987
01:09:40,149 --> 01:09:38,319
when you look at science fiction most of

1988
01:09:41,110 --> 01:09:40,159
the technology that they say is going to

1989
01:09:43,990 --> 01:09:41,120
happen in

1990
01:09:45,590 --> 01:09:44,000
like 2500 you know so buck rogers in the

1991
01:09:46,789 --> 01:09:45,600
25th century i think it is whatever was

1992
01:09:48,709 --> 01:09:46,799
in the 70s

1993
01:09:50,709 --> 01:09:48,719
you know you see technology that it

1994
01:09:53,269 --> 01:09:50,719
looks hilariously outdated within 10

1995
01:09:56,870 --> 01:09:53,279
years right the most our imagination can

1996
01:09:58,550 --> 01:09:56,880
usually go is about 30 years right

1997
01:10:00,630 --> 01:09:58,560
uh beyond that we

1998
01:10:02,229 --> 01:10:00,640
and literally like even even even

1999
01:10:03,990 --> 01:10:02,239
companies that exist today the googles

2000
01:10:06,950 --> 01:10:04,000
of the world you know

2001
01:10:08,709 --> 01:10:06,960
didn't exist 30 years ago right so

2002
01:10:11,110 --> 01:10:08,719
it's like things are happening so

2003
01:10:13,030 --> 01:10:11,120
quickly and it's in it's it's getting

2004
01:10:15,030 --> 01:10:13,040
it's you know it's getting

2005
01:10:17,270 --> 01:10:15,040
accelerated astronomically accelerated

2006
01:10:19,750 --> 01:10:17,280
right so you we're moving towards the

2007
01:10:22,470 --> 01:10:19,760
sort of singularity so again what does

2008
01:10:24,470 --> 01:10:22,480
that look like a billion years right

2009
01:10:26,070 --> 01:10:24,480
more it just really is a blank slate at

2010
01:10:28,390 --> 01:10:26,080
that point our imaginations can't even

2011
01:10:31,830 --> 01:10:28,400
wrap around it right and i think this is

2012
01:10:34,630 --> 01:10:31,840
an argument against

2013
01:10:36,470 --> 01:10:34,640
a one-and-done disclosure which is which

2014
01:10:39,590 --> 01:10:36,480
is something that i think you find

2015
01:10:41,590 --> 01:10:39,600
pretty rampant in in ufology that

2016
01:10:44,229 --> 01:10:41,600
there's this desire for

2017
01:10:47,189 --> 01:10:44,239
you know one tearing of the veil all the

2018
01:10:49,750 --> 01:10:47,199
secrets are revealed now we know

2019
01:10:52,630 --> 01:10:49,760
the truth with a capital t

2020
01:10:54,709 --> 01:10:52,640
and i think we need to be

2021
01:10:55,669 --> 01:10:54,719
real honest with ourselves

2022
01:10:59,669 --> 01:10:55,679
that

2023
01:11:01,430 --> 01:10:59,679
know because

2024
01:11:03,110 --> 01:11:01,440
here's something that

2025
01:11:05,030 --> 01:11:03,120
you know has bothered me since since i

2026
01:11:06,870 --> 01:11:05,040
was a child and that that's you know

2027
01:11:08,310 --> 01:11:06,880
growing up in a christian sort of

2028
01:11:09,669 --> 01:11:08,320
paradigm

2029
01:11:10,950 --> 01:11:09,679
a lot of the

2030
01:11:14,229 --> 01:11:10,960
uh

2031
01:11:15,270 --> 01:11:14,239
sort of talk of of heaven the afterlife

2032
01:11:16,550 --> 01:11:15,280
you know it's like this place where

2033
01:11:18,950 --> 01:11:16,560
everything's perfect everything's

2034
01:11:20,709 --> 01:11:18,960
everything's done everything's finished

2035
01:11:22,950 --> 01:11:20,719
i mean how boring and dull does that

2036
01:11:24,310 --> 01:11:22,960
sound you know so we have to i think

2037
01:11:27,830 --> 01:11:24,320
remember

2038
01:11:31,110 --> 01:11:27,840
that part of what brings uh

2039
01:11:33,030 --> 01:11:31,120
so much joy to the human experience is

2040
01:11:35,590 --> 01:11:33,040
the act of discovery

2041
01:11:39,750 --> 01:11:35,600
and and you answered that question i

2042
01:11:40,709 --> 01:11:39,760
think really elegantly uh about that

2043
01:11:45,350 --> 01:11:40,719
that

2044
01:11:47,750 --> 01:11:45,360
has to be taken it can't just be given

2045
01:11:49,830 --> 01:11:47,760
you can't just get a pamphlet and then

2046
01:11:51,910 --> 01:11:49,840
all of a sudden you know everything you

2047
01:11:54,470 --> 01:11:51,920
need to take that journey and if we're

2048
01:11:55,990 --> 01:11:54,480
lucky that journey never ends if if

2049
01:11:58,149 --> 01:11:56,000
we're lucky that adventure just

2050
01:12:00,630 --> 01:11:58,159
continues and i think we all need to

2051
01:12:02,390 --> 01:12:00,640
remind ourselves of that that

2052
01:12:04,790 --> 01:12:02,400
you know there's this tendency we have

2053
01:12:06,950 --> 01:12:04,800
to to really just want to be saved from

2054
01:12:09,030 --> 01:12:06,960
our from our problems you know so

2055
01:12:11,830 --> 01:12:09,040
uh the world's on fire you know there's

2056
01:12:13,350 --> 01:12:11,840
problems everywhere and uh et is gonna

2057
01:12:15,270 --> 01:12:13,360
come and save us and it's all gonna be

2058
01:12:17,350 --> 01:12:15,280
good you know we need we need to fight

2059
01:12:19,510 --> 01:12:17,360
against that tendency because that's not

2060
01:12:21,189 --> 01:12:19,520
really what makes us us and and

2061
01:12:23,430 --> 01:12:21,199
shouldn't make us what is us you know

2062
01:12:25,910 --> 01:12:23,440
what what makes us us is the journey the

2063
01:12:28,470 --> 01:12:25,920
journey of discovery of moving out past

2064
01:12:31,590 --> 01:12:28,480
the horizon and elizondo himself you

2065
01:12:33,990 --> 01:12:31,600
know uses that analogy uh of journeying

2066
01:12:36,870 --> 01:12:34,000
out past the horizon and it may seem

2067
01:12:38,630 --> 01:12:36,880
scary but that's really where you know

2068
01:12:41,270 --> 01:12:38,640
where we have to go we can't we can't

2069
01:12:44,149 --> 01:12:41,280
stay where we are we have to keep going

2070
01:12:46,470 --> 01:12:44,159
this yeah more like a statement

2071
01:12:48,470 --> 01:12:46,480
sorry not much of a question there

2072
01:12:51,350 --> 01:12:48,480
no but i agree with that statement and i

2073
01:12:52,630 --> 01:12:51,360
think that i think what's telling is

2074
01:12:54,630 --> 01:12:52,640
that what you were

2075
01:12:56,709 --> 01:12:54,640
sort of hinting at there with

2076
01:12:58,470 --> 01:12:56,719
religious perspectives that sort of

2077
01:12:59,990 --> 01:12:58,480
paint this picture of you know sitting

2078
01:13:02,709 --> 01:13:00,000
sitting on clouds in heaven playing

2079
01:13:04,870 --> 01:13:02,719
harps you know um that that that sounds

2080
01:13:06,310 --> 01:13:04,880
like a good time i mean how how many

2081
01:13:07,990 --> 01:13:06,320
hours can you do that before you kind of

2082
01:13:09,590 --> 01:13:08,000
want to do something else you know like

2083
01:13:10,709 --> 01:13:09,600
you can't play basketball you know in

2084
01:13:12,870 --> 01:13:10,719
heaven

2085
01:13:14,390 --> 01:13:12,880
right oh i mean

2086
01:13:16,550 --> 01:13:14,400
and there's no work to be done like

2087
01:13:18,390 --> 01:13:16,560
again when we have this this definition

2088
01:13:20,709 --> 01:13:18,400
of work is this thing we have to do

2089
01:13:22,709 --> 01:13:20,719
because it's how we make a living and

2090
01:13:24,149 --> 01:13:22,719
feed our families versus the sense of

2091
01:13:26,229 --> 01:13:24,159
calling that we talked about earlier

2092
01:13:27,430 --> 01:13:26,239
right the sense of impulse to keep

2093
01:13:29,750 --> 01:13:27,440
growing

2094
01:13:31,910 --> 01:13:29,760
for me i've always been motivated by

2095
01:13:34,630 --> 01:13:31,920
that impulse and that's what keeps me

2096
01:13:35,669 --> 01:13:34,640
alive and makes me feel alive and

2097
01:13:37,110 --> 01:13:35,679
um

2098
01:13:39,030 --> 01:13:37,120
when people talk about man i wish i

2099
01:13:40,630 --> 01:13:39,040
could retire and sit on a beach i mean

2100
01:13:42,229 --> 01:13:40,640
again i can do that for a couple days

2101
01:13:43,189 --> 01:13:42,239
and then i'm ready to like get back to

2102
01:13:45,669 --> 01:13:43,199
work

2103
01:13:48,070 --> 01:13:45,679
no yeah get my feet dirty and and keep

2104
01:13:49,669 --> 01:13:48,080
walking you know and keep learning and

2105
01:13:51,510 --> 01:13:49,679
um

2106
01:13:54,229 --> 01:13:51,520
yeah i think that we do have to be aware

2107
01:13:58,149 --> 01:13:54,239
of that tendency again to ascribe or to

2108
01:13:59,350 --> 01:13:58,159
pass off our responsibility you know

2109
01:14:00,630 --> 01:13:59,360
in the new testament there's that

2110
01:14:03,110 --> 01:14:00,640
expression you know work out your

2111
01:14:04,870 --> 01:14:03,120
salvation with fear and trembling right

2112
01:14:07,350 --> 01:14:04,880
and and that actually sounds like a lot

2113
01:14:10,070 --> 01:14:07,360
more wrestling than most evangelicals

2114
01:14:12,229 --> 01:14:10,080
want to uh want to hold on to you know

2115
01:14:13,110 --> 01:14:12,239
it's um

2116
01:14:15,590 --> 01:14:13,120
again

2117
01:14:17,030 --> 01:14:15,600
so much of this has just become

2118
01:14:18,950 --> 01:14:17,040
cultural inheritance that wasn't even

2119
01:14:20,630 --> 01:14:18,960
part of the original traditions and same

2120
01:14:22,630 --> 01:14:20,640
thing in ufology you know again it it's

2121
01:14:25,990 --> 01:14:22,640
sort of just again ascribing whether

2122
01:14:29,830 --> 01:14:26,000
it's subscribing to jesus or to allah or

2123
01:14:32,870 --> 01:14:29,840
to buddha or you know to a gray alien

2124
01:14:35,750 --> 01:14:32,880
you know to quasar who's from planet

2125
01:14:37,350 --> 01:14:35,760
zinko you know uh that he's going to

2126
01:14:39,270 --> 01:14:37,360
give me all the answers

2127
01:14:41,110 --> 01:14:39,280
again i agree with you that

2128
01:14:42,390 --> 01:14:41,120
we have to walk that path you know we we

2129
01:14:43,910 --> 01:14:42,400
often talk about

2130
01:14:45,830 --> 01:14:43,920
what my wife and i talk about with our

2131
01:14:47,910 --> 01:14:45,840
kids you know you don't like seeing your

2132
01:14:49,830 --> 01:14:47,920
kids go through hard things right

2133
01:14:51,350 --> 01:14:49,840
but you can't just give them a download

2134
01:14:53,830 --> 01:14:51,360
of your experiences and say hey when i

2135
01:14:55,990 --> 01:14:53,840
was 24 i did this not a good choice

2136
01:14:57,590 --> 01:14:56,000
don't do that and just take this

2137
01:14:59,590 --> 01:14:57,600
download like the matrix and then you

2138
01:15:01,030 --> 01:14:59,600
won't have to right no they have to go

2139
01:15:03,910 --> 01:15:01,040
through it themselves

2140
01:15:05,990 --> 01:15:03,920
and i think that actually is partly what

2141
01:15:07,590 --> 01:15:06,000
is happening here too i think that there

2142
01:15:09,189 --> 01:15:07,600
really is sort of the

2143
01:15:10,470 --> 01:15:09,199
the law of non-interference right the

2144
01:15:12,630 --> 01:15:10,480
star trek thing right the prime

2145
01:15:14,070 --> 01:15:12,640
directive that people say

2146
01:15:16,149 --> 01:15:14,080
a lot of experiences say they've heard

2147
01:15:17,990 --> 01:15:16,159
that's part of what's in play here right

2148
01:15:20,229 --> 01:15:18,000
that there is intervention but it's done

2149
01:15:22,070 --> 01:15:20,239
on a subconscious level for the very

2150
01:15:23,110 --> 01:15:22,080
reason you're pointing at nathan i think

2151
01:15:25,669 --> 01:15:23,120
that

2152
01:15:27,510 --> 01:15:25,679
only when we live something when we go

2153
01:15:28,630 --> 01:15:27,520
through something in order to overcome

2154
01:15:34,790 --> 01:15:28,640
it

2155
01:15:37,270 --> 01:15:34,800
think that is the tricky part of the

2156
01:15:38,630 --> 01:15:37,280
trickiness here is that

2157
01:15:40,390 --> 01:15:38,640
the intervention that's happening is

2158
01:15:41,189 --> 01:15:40,400
happening at a level where we can still

2159
01:15:46,950 --> 01:15:41,199
own

2160
01:15:48,950 --> 01:15:46,960
like valet talked about with the control

2161
01:15:49,750 --> 01:15:48,960
system there's boundaries

2162
01:15:50,470 --> 01:15:49,760
and

2163
01:15:54,550 --> 01:15:50,480
the

2164
01:15:56,149 --> 01:15:54,560
truman show right and he thinks he's

2165
01:15:57,669 --> 01:15:56,159
living in one reality and yet the entire

2166
01:15:59,510 --> 01:15:57,679
thing is controlled a certain degree i

2167
01:16:01,030 --> 01:15:59,520
think that may very well be happening

2168
01:16:03,030 --> 01:16:01,040
and happening at a level that we would

2169
01:16:04,390 --> 01:16:03,040
never know for sure so when i talked

2170
01:16:06,630 --> 01:16:04,400
about early early on in this

2171
01:16:08,229 --> 01:16:06,640
conversation i have this sense that

2172
01:16:09,830 --> 01:16:08,239
sometimes just

2173
01:16:11,350 --> 01:16:09,840
you know just behind the hills in a way

2174
01:16:12,950 --> 01:16:11,360
that i can't see there's something

2175
01:16:14,790 --> 01:16:12,960
driving me

2176
01:16:17,669 --> 01:16:14,800
that i can't put my finger on i think

2177
01:16:21,350 --> 01:16:17,679
that's happening on a civilization level

2178
01:16:22,870 --> 01:16:21,360
as well and um and that the

2179
01:16:24,709 --> 01:16:22,880
some of the entities that were

2180
01:16:26,950 --> 01:16:24,719
encountered in the old testament and in

2181
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,960
other religious traditions may very well

2182
01:16:30,550 --> 01:16:28,560
have been

2183
01:16:32,709 --> 01:16:30,560
agents from the same phenomenon that are

2184
01:16:35,510 --> 01:16:32,719
that are in subtle ways shaping but

2185
01:16:37,590 --> 01:16:35,520
inevitable ways and ways that really do

2186
01:16:38,709 --> 01:16:37,600
impact the ultimate role or the ultimate

2187
01:16:40,709 --> 01:16:38,719
direction you know you think about the

2188
01:16:42,470 --> 01:16:40,719
butterfly effect right

2189
01:16:44,709 --> 01:16:42,480
someone goes back to the dinosaur era to

2190
01:16:46,390 --> 01:16:44,719
the you know and and steps on a leaf and

2191
01:16:49,189 --> 01:16:46,400
then the entire course of evolutionary

2192
01:16:50,470 --> 01:16:49,199
history changes right i think

2193
01:16:52,550 --> 01:16:50,480
when you're working at the level some of

2194
01:16:54,950 --> 01:16:52,560
these intelligences are where they

2195
01:16:56,709 --> 01:16:54,960
experience time sort of simultaneously

2196
01:16:58,310 --> 01:16:56,719
or that's even the wrong word again we

2197
01:16:59,669 --> 01:16:58,320
even our language is tricky we can't

2198
01:17:01,669 --> 01:16:59,679
talk about time without thinking about

2199
01:17:03,430 --> 01:17:01,679
it in a linear fashion but if they

2200
01:17:06,550 --> 01:17:03,440
experience time

2201
01:17:08,630 --> 01:17:06,560
sort of as this seamless

2202
01:17:11,189 --> 01:17:08,640
you know past present future then they

2203
01:17:12,950 --> 01:17:11,199
could know exactly precisely

2204
01:17:15,350 --> 01:17:12,960
what subtle shifts have to happen to

2205
01:17:17,030 --> 01:17:15,360
help direct the entire civilization

2206
01:17:18,630 --> 01:17:17,040
and they could be actually relatively

2207
01:17:19,990 --> 01:17:18,640
simple changes but they inevitably

2208
01:17:21,110 --> 01:17:20,000
change things because they happen over

2209
01:17:23,189 --> 01:17:21,120
the course of a million years or

2210
01:17:24,950 --> 01:17:23,199
something like that

2211
01:17:26,709 --> 01:17:24,960
yeah for sure

2212
01:17:29,510 --> 01:17:26,719
this is this is fascinating i feel like

2213
01:17:32,310 --> 01:17:29,520
i'm presiding over a conversation

2214
01:17:34,870 --> 01:17:32,320
between two brothers from other mothers

2215
01:17:37,030 --> 01:17:34,880
uh it's it's it's it's so great to hear

2216
01:17:38,390 --> 01:17:37,040
you guys talk it's really everything i

2217
01:17:39,910 --> 01:17:38,400
thought it was going to be when we

2218
01:17:42,310 --> 01:17:39,920
organized this so

2219
01:17:45,510 --> 01:17:42,320
um i'm really glad and by the way nathan

2220
01:17:47,370 --> 01:17:45,520
he said i asked a good question

2221
01:17:49,669 --> 01:17:47,380
you did man yeah absolutely

2222
01:17:51,430 --> 01:17:49,679
[Laughter]

2223
01:17:54,149 --> 01:17:51,440
more than one person can ask a good

2224
01:17:56,470 --> 01:17:54,159
question absolutely absolutely

2225
01:17:59,270 --> 01:17:56,480
all right uh how about a speed round exo

2226
01:18:01,750 --> 01:17:59,280
where we we do some of the uh the

2227
01:18:04,229 --> 01:18:01,760
greatest hits or maybe it's the b sides

2228
01:18:06,550 --> 01:18:04,239
of like the led zeppelin uh traveling

2229
01:18:07,430 --> 01:18:06,560
riverside blues that kind of stuff

2230
01:18:10,550 --> 01:18:07,440
uh

2231
01:18:12,550 --> 01:18:10,560
so i just want to see like i was curious

2232
01:18:15,189 --> 01:18:12,560
because you've talked a lot about

2233
01:18:16,310 --> 01:18:15,199
experiencers on your show

2234
01:18:17,990 --> 01:18:16,320
um

2235
01:18:20,870 --> 01:18:18,000
what do you think

2236
01:18:22,390 --> 01:18:20,880
which one compels you the most like when

2237
01:18:24,870 --> 01:18:22,400
you hear it

2238
01:18:27,590 --> 01:18:24,880
it almost like makes the hair on your

2239
01:18:29,350 --> 01:18:27,600
arms stand up or

2240
01:18:32,470 --> 01:18:29,360
which is the one do you find the most

2241
01:18:34,390 --> 01:18:32,480
compelling if there is in fact one

2242
01:18:36,470 --> 01:18:34,400
well i think i would say more than it

2243
01:18:39,189 --> 01:18:36,480
being one i would say what i find most

2244
01:18:41,189 --> 01:18:39,199
compelling is how consistent

2245
01:18:43,510 --> 01:18:41,199
some of the stories are

2246
01:18:46,229 --> 01:18:43,520
across a wide variety of people even

2247
01:18:47,270 --> 01:18:46,239
from different cultural backgrounds when

2248
01:18:48,950 --> 01:18:47,280
the

2249
01:18:51,189 --> 01:18:48,960
free experience for research study came

2250
01:18:52,950 --> 01:18:51,199
out it found that even people whose

2251
01:18:54,709 --> 01:18:52,960
primary language is not english were

2252
01:18:57,030 --> 01:18:54,719
having some of these same experiences so

2253
01:18:57,910 --> 01:18:57,040
that to me lends a lot of credibility

2254
01:18:59,189 --> 01:18:57,920
when

2255
01:19:01,189 --> 01:18:59,199
um

2256
01:19:03,669 --> 01:19:01,199
when people when when whitley streeper

2257
01:19:05,270 --> 01:19:03,679
published communion in the 1980s and

2258
01:19:07,189 --> 01:19:05,280
then suddenly

2259
01:19:08,870 --> 01:19:07,199
you had you know thousands of people

2260
01:19:11,110 --> 01:19:08,880
around the world suddenly having this

2261
01:19:12,470 --> 01:19:11,120
sense of i recognize that you know that

2262
01:19:14,070 --> 01:19:12,480
was a fairly

2263
01:19:15,830 --> 01:19:14,080
new thing for that but that's become the

2264
01:19:17,830 --> 01:19:15,840
quintessential face of the alien right

2265
01:19:19,990 --> 01:19:17,840
in our culture and yet for a lot of

2266
01:19:23,430 --> 01:19:20,000
people subconsciously something rang

2267
01:19:25,189 --> 01:19:23,440
true with that so that's it's not one

2268
01:19:27,270 --> 01:19:25,199
case that really gets me it's the fact

2269
01:19:29,590 --> 01:19:27,280
there's so much consistency around these

2270
01:19:32,470 --> 01:19:29,600
different cases even for people who had

2271
01:19:34,790 --> 01:19:32,480
no background in ufology and especially

2272
01:19:36,470 --> 01:19:34,800
i pay very close attention to people who

2273
01:19:37,430 --> 01:19:36,480
make it very clear and there's evidence

2274
01:19:38,950 --> 01:19:37,440
even

2275
01:19:40,390 --> 01:19:38,960
that the last thing they wanted to

2276
01:19:42,790 --> 01:19:40,400
believe was that they were an alien

2277
01:19:44,950 --> 01:19:42,800
contactee or abductee you know and you

2278
01:19:46,630 --> 01:19:44,960
come across a lot of those stories where

2279
01:19:48,950 --> 01:19:46,640
people went to psychologists after

2280
01:19:52,070 --> 01:19:48,960
psychologist after psychologist wanting

2281
01:19:54,470 --> 01:19:52,080
to be found clinically insane

2282
01:19:56,550 --> 01:19:54,480
before believing they were actually an

2283
01:19:58,470 --> 01:19:56,560
alien contact b you know what i mean

2284
01:20:00,149 --> 01:19:58,480
like that that tells me these people are

2285
01:20:01,430 --> 01:20:00,159
not making it up these are not people

2286
01:20:05,189 --> 01:20:01,440
they're quick to

2287
01:20:07,350 --> 01:20:05,199
fantasy thoughts these are people who

2288
01:20:08,629 --> 01:20:07,360
wanted to hold on to that narrow

2289
01:20:10,070 --> 01:20:08,639
perspective of reality that felt

2290
01:20:12,709 --> 01:20:10,080
familiar to them and they did everything

2291
01:20:14,550 --> 01:20:12,719
they could until the only thing left

2292
01:20:16,629 --> 01:20:14,560
the only thing left was to believe that

2293
01:20:17,990 --> 01:20:16,639
somehow this was really happening so

2294
01:20:19,910 --> 01:20:18,000
that's that's that's what i would say

2295
01:20:21,669 --> 01:20:19,920
about that and of course for me

2296
01:20:23,270 --> 01:20:21,679
i've had some of my own

2297
01:20:25,189 --> 01:20:23,280
experiences with high strangeness and

2298
01:20:27,590 --> 01:20:25,199
that absolutely changed my perspective

2299
01:20:29,270 --> 01:20:27,600
forever uh that's one thing i should

2300
01:20:31,750 --> 01:20:29,280
have said in the beginning you know i

2301
01:20:33,830 --> 01:20:31,760
had an experience with my wife in 2005

2302
01:20:34,790 --> 01:20:33,840
that i i still can't wrap my head around

2303
01:20:36,149 --> 01:20:34,800
and

2304
01:20:38,310 --> 01:20:36,159
it it

2305
01:20:39,750 --> 01:20:38,320
once and for all said to me that

2306
01:20:41,750 --> 01:20:39,760
what we've always been taught about what

2307
01:20:43,350 --> 01:20:41,760
reality what constitutes reality is

2308
01:20:45,189 --> 01:20:43,360
incomplete

2309
01:20:46,709 --> 01:20:45,199
what would you like to share that

2310
01:20:47,990 --> 01:20:46,719
experience

2311
01:20:49,990 --> 01:20:48,000
sure i can give you the the quick

2312
01:20:53,030 --> 01:20:50,000
outline um

2313
01:20:54,950 --> 01:20:53,040
so my wife and i were staying in a hotel

2314
01:20:57,910 --> 01:20:54,960
uh we were traveling across the country

2315
01:21:00,310 --> 01:20:57,920
from tennessee to washington at the time

2316
01:21:01,990 --> 01:21:00,320
uh we were in the process of moving we

2317
01:21:04,390 --> 01:21:02,000
had a young daughter and my wife was

2318
01:21:05,270 --> 01:21:04,400
several months pregnant with our son

2319
01:21:07,030 --> 01:21:05,280
and

2320
01:21:09,750 --> 01:21:07,040
um

2321
01:21:11,990 --> 01:21:09,760
in the early morning hours

2322
01:21:12,950 --> 01:21:12,000
i was awoken by a figure at the end of

2323
01:21:14,629 --> 01:21:12,960
our bed

2324
01:21:16,229 --> 01:21:14,639
my initial assumption was it was our

2325
01:21:18,229 --> 01:21:16,239
daughter who'd gotten up maybe to use

2326
01:21:20,149 --> 01:21:18,239
the bathroom and maybe she was confused

2327
01:21:21,189 --> 01:21:20,159
what we weren't at home you know i was

2328
01:21:22,149 --> 01:21:21,199
going to help her because we're in a

2329
01:21:24,229 --> 01:21:22,159
hotel

2330
01:21:25,510 --> 01:21:24,239
became quickly evident this was not our

2331
01:21:28,310 --> 01:21:25,520
daughter she was still sleeping in the

2332
01:21:31,110 --> 01:21:28,320
bed next to us this was something else

2333
01:21:34,629 --> 01:21:31,120
this was some sort of entity that to us

2334
01:21:35,750 --> 01:21:34,639
appeared mostly humanoid and female

2335
01:21:41,189 --> 01:21:35,760
and

2336
01:21:42,470 --> 01:21:41,199
this being thinking again at first it

2337
01:21:45,189 --> 01:21:42,480
was my daughter until i realized it

2338
01:21:46,950 --> 01:21:45,199
wasn't wasn't the right size or anything

2339
01:21:47,910 --> 01:21:46,960
and then what was interesting is the

2340
01:21:51,110 --> 01:21:47,920
being

2341
01:21:53,910 --> 01:21:51,120
seemed surprised that i could see it

2342
01:21:57,030 --> 01:21:53,920
and um and what's fascinating is as

2343
01:21:58,550 --> 01:21:57,040
years later when i finally got around to

2344
01:21:59,990 --> 01:21:58,560
reading some of the literature i found

2345
01:22:02,229 --> 01:22:00,000
out that's quite common that when people

2346
01:22:04,629 --> 01:22:02,239
do have those experiences

2347
01:22:05,910 --> 01:22:04,639
these beings go oh this one can see us

2348
01:22:08,470 --> 01:22:05,920
you know like they actually seem

2349
01:22:10,310 --> 01:22:08,480
surprised by that so it backed up it

2350
01:22:11,910 --> 01:22:10,320
slash she backed up and went right

2351
01:22:13,750 --> 01:22:11,920
through the wall of the hotel and

2352
01:22:15,590 --> 01:22:13,760
disappeared

2353
01:22:17,510 --> 01:22:15,600
so i did a very strange thing which

2354
01:22:19,189 --> 01:22:17,520
again only later when i read the

2355
01:22:20,709 --> 01:22:19,199
literature behind the phenomenon that i

2356
01:22:22,390 --> 01:22:20,719
realized this was quite consistent as

2357
01:22:23,430 --> 01:22:22,400
well i turned around and went straight

2358
01:22:24,870 --> 01:22:23,440
back to sleep at least that's what i

2359
01:22:25,910 --> 01:22:24,880
wanted to do i wanted to just turn

2360
01:22:27,430 --> 01:22:25,920
around and go to sleep which doesn't

2361
01:22:28,870 --> 01:22:27,440
make any sense

2362
01:22:30,550 --> 01:22:28,880
from a behavioral point of view when

2363
01:22:32,149 --> 01:22:30,560
you've just had this ontologically

2364
01:22:34,470 --> 01:22:32,159
shocking experience

2365
01:22:35,430 --> 01:22:34,480
thankfully and i'm really happy for this

2366
01:22:38,629 --> 01:22:35,440
and

2367
01:22:41,110 --> 01:22:38,639
know a lot of people don't get this

2368
01:22:41,910 --> 01:22:41,120
benefit but my wife saw the whole thing

2369
01:22:46,390 --> 01:22:41,920
too

2370
01:22:48,149 --> 01:22:46,400
she stopped me from going to sleep

2371
01:22:50,390 --> 01:22:48,159
if she hadn't stopped me i would have

2372
01:22:51,830 --> 01:22:50,400
gone to sleep and i'm certain i would

2373
01:22:54,149 --> 01:22:51,840
have woken up thinking i had a weird

2374
01:22:55,669 --> 01:22:54,159
dream and nothing else but she stopped

2375
01:22:56,870 --> 01:22:55,679
me from going to sleep she said what we

2376
01:22:58,149 --> 01:22:56,880
got to figure out what just happened you

2377
01:23:00,229 --> 01:22:58,159
can't go to sleep

2378
01:23:03,350 --> 01:23:00,239
we talked about it that grounded it in

2379
01:23:05,590 --> 01:23:03,360
my reality okay and in my wife's reality

2380
01:23:07,590 --> 01:23:05,600
we decided and then even stranger my

2381
01:23:09,510 --> 01:23:07,600
wife or my daughter had these welts all

2382
01:23:11,110 --> 01:23:09,520
over her body that she'd never had

2383
01:23:13,510 --> 01:23:11,120
before we didn't know what that was

2384
01:23:15,430 --> 01:23:13,520
about we didn't see any bugs in the bed

2385
01:23:17,510 --> 01:23:15,440
maybe it was allergic reaction to sheets

2386
01:23:18,870 --> 01:23:17,520
we don't know anyway we hit the road

2387
01:23:22,950 --> 01:23:18,880
within a few hours the welds were

2388
01:23:24,229 --> 01:23:22,960
completely gone and um

2389
01:23:25,430 --> 01:23:24,239
yeah so that

2390
01:23:26,709 --> 01:23:25,440
and what was even stranger is when i

2391
01:23:28,470 --> 01:23:26,719
went back to bed

2392
01:23:31,030 --> 01:23:28,480
i tried to go back to bed my wife saw

2393
01:23:32,790 --> 01:23:31,040
this being come back through the wall

2394
01:23:35,669 --> 01:23:32,800
really back into our room then go down

2395
01:23:37,189 --> 01:23:35,679
the hall of the hotel room and and then

2396
01:23:39,750 --> 01:23:37,199
pass through the front door didn't open

2397
01:23:41,750 --> 01:23:39,760
the front door just went you know

2398
01:23:44,470 --> 01:23:41,760
just went right through the front door

2399
01:23:46,550 --> 01:23:44,480
was it clothed in something

2400
01:23:48,629 --> 01:23:46,560
but that's what's weird too and this

2401
01:23:50,709 --> 01:23:48,639
this is what's so

2402
01:23:52,390 --> 01:23:50,719
fascinating about this entire experience

2403
01:23:53,990 --> 01:23:52,400
you'll sometimes have two experiencers

2404
01:23:55,110 --> 01:23:54,000
who experience the same thing they both

2405
01:23:56,629 --> 01:23:55,120
experience something but there's

2406
01:24:00,070 --> 01:23:56,639
different elements

2407
01:24:01,510 --> 01:24:00,080
so my wife only saw the upper torso

2408
01:24:03,590 --> 01:24:01,520
of this being there were no legs i saw

2409
01:24:05,910 --> 01:24:03,600
an entire body

2410
01:24:07,830 --> 01:24:05,920
and it was kind of um

2411
01:24:09,430 --> 01:24:07,840
shimmering so it was hard to tell if it

2412
01:24:11,590 --> 01:24:09,440
was clothing or

2413
01:24:13,430 --> 01:24:11,600
uh or what because it just had any kind

2414
01:24:14,310 --> 01:24:13,440
of ethereal kind of look to it

2415
01:24:16,310 --> 01:24:14,320
but

2416
01:24:17,830 --> 01:24:16,320
it was fascinating because we both

2417
01:24:19,110 --> 01:24:17,840
experienced this thing we both grounded

2418
01:24:21,510 --> 01:24:19,120
in a reality but even then there were

2419
01:24:23,270 --> 01:24:21,520
some differences like my wife saw hair

2420
01:24:25,669 --> 01:24:23,280
blowing like as if it was being blowing

2421
01:24:26,550 --> 01:24:25,679
in the wind i didn't see that

2422
01:24:28,790 --> 01:24:26,560
so

2423
01:24:30,870 --> 01:24:28,800
very strange um

2424
01:24:32,629 --> 01:24:30,880
and so it's even more discombobulating

2425
01:24:34,629 --> 01:24:32,639
that we both saw it but we saw different

2426
01:24:36,790 --> 01:24:34,639
things you know again this doesn't fit

2427
01:24:39,189 --> 01:24:36,800
with our narrative about how reality

2428
01:24:41,189 --> 01:24:39,199
works where we talk about objective or

2429
01:24:42,550 --> 01:24:41,199
consensus reality right so my wife and i

2430
01:24:45,430 --> 01:24:42,560
were both experiencing something but

2431
01:24:46,310 --> 01:24:45,440
there was only limited consensus right

2432
01:24:48,390 --> 01:24:46,320
so

2433
01:24:50,390 --> 01:24:48,400
that tells me again that what reality

2434
01:24:52,950 --> 01:24:50,400
actually is is much more complex than we

2435
01:24:56,070 --> 01:24:52,960
can grasp yet i pro i promise nathan

2436
01:24:59,189 --> 01:24:56,080
i'll finish up here but if you listen to

2437
01:25:02,070 --> 01:24:59,199
a podcast with tim mcmillan it was andy

2438
01:25:04,470 --> 01:25:02,080
our our friend from that ufo podcast

2439
01:25:06,470 --> 01:25:04,480
interviewing tim mcmillan and

2440
01:25:07,590 --> 01:25:06,480
an hour and a half into it or so he

2441
01:25:10,310 --> 01:25:07,600
asked him

2442
01:25:12,950 --> 01:25:10,320
about a listener question was about

2443
01:25:14,390 --> 01:25:12,960
roswell and basically tim mcmillan said

2444
01:25:16,390 --> 01:25:14,400
that there's a guy

2445
01:25:18,790 --> 01:25:16,400
that he has spoken with but he can't

2446
01:25:21,030 --> 01:25:18,800
reveal and is hoping that before

2447
01:25:21,830 --> 01:25:21,040
his eventual death that if he outlives

2448
01:25:26,310 --> 01:25:21,840
him

2449
01:25:29,189 --> 01:25:26,320
i don't know if we would take that to

2450
01:25:32,070 --> 01:25:29,199
mean a member of mj12 etc etc but

2451
01:25:35,110 --> 01:25:32,080
basically he said that the that roswell

2452
01:25:37,189 --> 01:25:35,120
did happen he did say that the the he

2453
01:25:39,669 --> 01:25:37,199
told him roswell happened they weren't

2454
01:25:43,350 --> 01:25:39,679
anthropomorphic beings and that there

2455
01:25:44,629 --> 01:25:43,360
was a nexus between what each individual

2456
01:25:46,390 --> 01:25:44,639
saw

2457
01:25:48,229 --> 01:25:46,400
so they're looking at it but they're

2458
01:25:49,510 --> 01:25:48,239
interpreting differently and that jobs

2459
01:25:51,590 --> 01:25:49,520
with what you just said about you and

2460
01:25:54,550 --> 01:25:51,600
your wife if i'm not yeah you have cases

2461
01:25:56,149 --> 01:25:54,560
like fatima you know in portugal which

2462
01:25:58,390 --> 01:25:56,159
the catholic church claimed was an

2463
01:25:59,990 --> 01:25:58,400
appearance of you know the virgin mary

2464
01:26:01,990 --> 01:26:00,000
and um

2465
01:26:04,709 --> 01:26:02,000
catholic followers just gobbled it up

2466
01:26:05,990 --> 01:26:04,719
and said it sounds good to us and yet

2467
01:26:07,750 --> 01:26:06,000
jacques villa and other people with a

2468
01:26:09,350 --> 01:26:07,760
background in the ufo phenomenon say hey

2469
01:26:11,750 --> 01:26:09,360
this sure looks like a case of the ufo

2470
01:26:12,870 --> 01:26:11,760
phenomenon to us not a religious

2471
01:26:15,110 --> 01:26:12,880
apparition

2472
01:26:16,629 --> 01:26:15,120
but again even there the lines blur and

2473
01:26:17,990 --> 01:26:16,639
to your point

2474
01:26:20,950 --> 01:26:18,000
different people experience different

2475
01:26:23,590 --> 01:26:20,960
things saw different things even

2476
01:26:25,189 --> 01:26:23,600
receive different telepathic messages so

2477
01:26:27,030 --> 01:26:25,199
again

2478
01:26:28,790 --> 01:26:27,040
this is part of the complexities we

2479
01:26:30,229 --> 01:26:28,800
bring something to the table in these

2480
01:26:32,149 --> 01:26:30,239
experiences i don't think it's just that

2481
01:26:33,030 --> 01:26:32,159
they're customizing experiences for us i

2482
01:26:35,590 --> 01:26:33,040
think

2483
01:26:37,270 --> 01:26:35,600
our consciousness somehow primes the

2484
01:26:38,390 --> 01:26:37,280
experience as well

2485
01:26:40,149 --> 01:26:38,400
so

2486
01:26:42,310 --> 01:26:40,159
again there's more questions than

2487
01:26:43,990 --> 01:26:42,320
answers and that's why uh it's

2488
01:26:45,830 --> 01:26:44,000
fascinating to me but i

2489
01:26:47,510 --> 01:26:45,840
i hold it loosely because there's so

2490
01:26:49,189 --> 01:26:47,520
much we don't know yet but it's it's

2491
01:26:51,990 --> 01:26:49,199
really intriguing

2492
01:26:54,629 --> 01:26:52,000
all right that was uh it really is and

2493
01:26:56,310 --> 01:26:54,639
uh let's let nathan get the uh the last

2494
01:26:58,790 --> 01:26:56,320
question in

2495
01:27:01,430 --> 01:26:58,800
it's on a scale of one to ten with one

2496
01:27:03,590 --> 01:27:01,440
being it's a disinfo campaign

2497
01:27:06,470 --> 01:27:03,600
and ten being

2498
01:27:07,990 --> 01:27:06,480
they they they know it all and uh they

2499
01:27:09,110 --> 01:27:08,000
know the grand scheme

2500
01:27:11,350 --> 01:27:09,120
uh

2501
01:27:16,149 --> 01:27:11,360
how much does the us government know

2502
01:27:19,350 --> 01:27:17,669
so i think

2503
01:27:21,030 --> 01:27:19,360
partly based on what we we talked about

2504
01:27:22,470 --> 01:27:21,040
already there are there are different

2505
01:27:23,990 --> 01:27:22,480
people with different backgrounds with

2506
01:27:25,669 --> 01:27:24,000
different assumptions about reality to

2507
01:27:27,510 --> 01:27:25,679
begin with right so

2508
01:27:29,590 --> 01:27:27,520
uh within government as well so that's

2509
01:27:31,830 --> 01:27:29,600
just a slice of our civilization like

2510
01:27:34,709 --> 01:27:31,840
any other group so you're to have

2511
01:27:35,590 --> 01:27:34,719
varying uh assumptions there

2512
01:27:37,430 --> 01:27:35,600
so

2513
01:27:39,110 --> 01:27:37,440
in terms of a best assessment let's say

2514
01:27:40,550 --> 01:27:39,120
if the military had put together a best

2515
01:27:42,310 --> 01:27:40,560
assessment

2516
01:27:43,270 --> 01:27:42,320
they might

2517
01:27:45,510 --> 01:27:43,280
say

2518
01:27:47,910 --> 01:27:45,520
there's there's strong evidence that i

2519
01:27:50,470 --> 01:27:47,920
do think they they have very strong

2520
01:27:52,709 --> 01:27:50,480
evidence that this is not the

2521
01:27:54,550 --> 01:27:52,719
technology of an adversary like china or

2522
01:27:55,910 --> 01:27:54,560
russia i mean some of it may very well

2523
01:27:56,870 --> 01:27:55,920
be

2524
01:27:59,189 --> 01:27:56,880
but

2525
01:28:00,950 --> 01:27:59,199
i think they are confident that some of

2526
01:28:03,350 --> 01:28:00,960
this is

2527
01:28:05,510 --> 01:28:03,360
and i i even like how they went to uap

2528
01:28:07,350 --> 01:28:05,520
rather than ufo which

2529
01:28:09,830 --> 01:28:07,360
some people just see that purely as a

2530
01:28:12,070 --> 01:28:09,840
way to um confuse the matter and to sort

2531
01:28:13,990 --> 01:28:12,080
of separate this from ufology

2532
01:28:16,229 --> 01:28:14,000
historically but i think it's partly

2533
01:28:17,830 --> 01:28:16,239
saying this is a phenomena let's not

2534
01:28:19,270 --> 01:28:17,840
even call them objects because some of

2535
01:28:20,310 --> 01:28:19,280
these seem to

2536
01:28:22,470 --> 01:28:20,320
uh

2537
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:22,480
see seem somehow liminal in nature right

2538
01:28:25,990 --> 01:28:24,320
they're eating our ideas of what is a

2539
01:28:28,229 --> 01:28:26,000
solid object what is not what's real

2540
01:28:30,629 --> 01:28:28,239
versus what's not even that gets complex

2541
01:28:33,110 --> 01:28:30,639
i think that's acknowledged in that

2542
01:28:36,229 --> 01:28:33,120
language that's used um

2543
01:28:38,310 --> 01:28:36,239
i think with high confidence uh i'll

2544
01:28:40,390 --> 01:28:38,320
give you an eight or nine that they are

2545
01:28:42,470 --> 01:28:40,400
they they know that

2546
01:28:44,950 --> 01:28:42,480
they're confident that is not human

2547
01:28:46,149 --> 01:28:44,960
technology some of what's going on

2548
01:28:48,709 --> 01:28:46,159
um

2549
01:28:51,830 --> 01:28:48,719
i think that in terms of ultimately

2550
01:28:53,910 --> 01:28:51,840
understanding the full

2551
01:28:55,030 --> 01:28:53,920
you're likely to get lucky if you get to

2552
01:28:56,550 --> 01:28:55,040
one

2553
01:28:57,750 --> 01:28:56,560
only because of what i've just been

2554
01:29:00,229 --> 01:28:57,760
saying that

2555
01:29:03,030 --> 01:29:00,239
every sort of tentative answer that gets

2556
01:29:04,550 --> 01:29:03,040
offered up he gets five more questions

2557
01:29:06,310 --> 01:29:04,560
and they ultimately become questions

2558
01:29:08,310 --> 01:29:06,320
about some of the assumptions we have

2559
01:29:10,629 --> 01:29:08,320
about reality that we

2560
01:29:11,990 --> 01:29:10,639
unquestionably walk through the world

2561
01:29:15,189 --> 01:29:12,000
with and so

2562
01:29:17,110 --> 01:29:15,199
uh you it's it's this crazy thing where

2563
01:29:18,790 --> 01:29:17,120
you put one sock on and find it

2564
01:29:20,870 --> 01:29:18,800
someone's just pulled your pants off you

2565
01:29:22,550 --> 01:29:20,880
know what i mean uh in other words you

2566
01:29:24,790 --> 01:29:22,560
end up you end up further behind than

2567
01:29:26,790 --> 01:29:24,800
when you began and i think that's part

2568
01:29:28,709 --> 01:29:26,800
of the intention here even

2569
01:29:30,629 --> 01:29:28,719
is this subversive way of getting us to

2570
01:29:32,070 --> 01:29:30,639
question our understanding of reality

2571
01:29:32,870 --> 01:29:32,080
and that's why i agree with you nathan

2572
01:29:34,950 --> 01:29:32,880
that

2573
01:29:37,990 --> 01:29:34,960
this is going to be incremental steps in

2574
01:29:40,550 --> 01:29:38,000
disclosure and each one is a bigger loop

2575
01:29:43,510 --> 01:29:40,560
than the previous one

2576
01:29:46,870 --> 01:29:43,520
yeah and uh i want to say uh to that end

2577
01:29:50,950 --> 01:29:46,880
uh about the disinformation campaign uh

2578
01:29:53,030 --> 01:29:50,960
strange arrivals podcast goes deep into

2579
01:29:55,910 --> 01:29:53,040
the whole thing with uh interviews with

2580
01:29:59,189 --> 01:29:55,920
uh richard dodie is that right guys

2581
01:30:01,189 --> 01:29:59,199
yep yep rick dodie and other individuals

2582
01:30:03,270 --> 01:30:01,199
there's some other individuals where

2583
01:30:04,229 --> 01:30:03,280
that they actually mask the person's

2584
01:30:06,470 --> 01:30:04,239
voice

2585
01:30:08,229 --> 01:30:06,480
uh but you could find them on apple it's

2586
01:30:10,470 --> 01:30:08,239
a grim and mild

2587
01:30:12,709 --> 01:30:10,480
uh is the name of the uh company that

2588
01:30:14,790 --> 01:30:12,719
produces this podcast

2589
01:30:16,470 --> 01:30:14,800
a lot of it goes over the you know part

2590
01:30:18,790 --> 01:30:16,480
of it they go over rendell shim and i

2591
01:30:21,430 --> 01:30:18,800
think we've been over that ad nauseam

2592
01:30:24,149 --> 01:30:21,440
but there was a whole nother

2593
01:30:25,270 --> 01:30:24,159
aspect in season one that was very

2594
01:30:28,950 --> 01:30:25,280
interesting

2595
01:30:31,910 --> 01:30:28,960
um if the host's name is toby ball

2596
01:30:36,149 --> 01:30:31,920
but uh i i want to say for my part

2597
01:30:38,229 --> 01:30:36,159
uh at least in my time uh in government

2598
01:30:40,790 --> 01:30:38,239
and just what i know about how they

2599
01:30:43,030 --> 01:30:40,800
operate i do believe that there was

2600
01:30:44,629 --> 01:30:43,040
especially after hearing this and

2601
01:30:47,750 --> 01:30:44,639
listening to different people there was

2602
01:30:49,350 --> 01:30:47,760
there's obviously a significant

2603
01:30:52,790 --> 01:30:49,360
campaign that

2604
01:30:56,870 --> 01:30:52,800
used uh certain principles to muddy the

2605
01:30:59,270 --> 01:30:56,880
waters etc i believe like exo does

2606
01:31:00,870 --> 01:30:59,280
uh nine that they definitely have a lot

2607
01:31:03,990 --> 01:31:00,880
more information

2608
01:31:06,470 --> 01:31:04,000
than they've told us uh that they may or

2609
01:31:08,229 --> 01:31:06,480
may they likely have

2610
01:31:10,550 --> 01:31:08,239
a craft or two

2611
01:31:12,070 --> 01:31:10,560
and medals and so on and so forth i

2612
01:31:14,390 --> 01:31:12,080
believe

2613
01:31:16,390 --> 01:31:14,400
uh i don't know about the whole alien

2614
01:31:17,510 --> 01:31:16,400
body thing i'd love to know if you guys

2615
01:31:20,310 --> 01:31:17,520
think that they

2616
01:31:21,990 --> 01:31:20,320
collected up that uh i did you guys see

2617
01:31:25,189 --> 01:31:22,000
what they call them eb

2618
01:31:26,550 --> 01:31:25,199
the uh bbe yeah ebe right

2619
01:31:30,229 --> 01:31:26,560
um

2620
01:31:31,110 --> 01:31:30,239
it sounds it sounds plausible i i don't

2621
01:31:35,750 --> 01:31:31,120
know

2622
01:31:36,629 --> 01:31:35,760
than they're telling us i don't believe

2623
01:31:39,750 --> 01:31:36,639
that

2624
01:31:42,870 --> 01:31:39,760
any government contractor would have an

2625
01:31:45,910 --> 01:31:42,880
entire aircraft if they had one i don't

2626
01:31:47,910 --> 01:31:45,920
care if it's bigelow or somebody else

2627
01:31:49,910 --> 01:31:47,920
that would be in a base that nobody

2628
01:31:51,830 --> 01:31:49,920
could get to and i think we know a

2629
01:31:54,550 --> 01:31:51,840
couple of places like that

2630
01:31:57,110 --> 01:31:54,560
where they would keep those materials uh

2631
01:31:59,270 --> 01:31:57,120
and they can stay there in perpetuity uh

2632
01:32:00,550 --> 01:31:59,280
and no one would ever and let me tell

2633
01:32:02,709 --> 01:32:00,560
you guys something

2634
01:32:03,750 --> 01:32:02,719
john greenwald can foy until he's blue

2635
01:32:06,070 --> 01:32:03,760
in the face

2636
01:32:07,910 --> 01:32:06,080
um there's plausible deniability and

2637
01:32:09,990 --> 01:32:07,920
they will if they don't want to release

2638
01:32:12,149 --> 01:32:10,000
that information they never will it

2639
01:32:13,830 --> 01:32:12,159
doesn't matter how many foia requests or

2640
01:32:15,590 --> 01:32:13,840
how many senators

2641
01:32:18,229 --> 01:32:15,600
ask for it it has to be the right

2642
01:32:20,149 --> 01:32:18,239
combination of people

2643
01:32:22,229 --> 01:32:20,159
that would release something like that

2644
01:32:23,590 --> 01:32:22,239
and to whose interest

2645
01:32:26,629 --> 01:32:23,600
would that serve

2646
01:32:28,950 --> 01:32:26,639
it would serve ours

2647
01:32:30,229 --> 01:32:28,960
but i don't know you know that it would

2648
01:32:34,470 --> 01:32:30,239
serve

2649
01:32:36,709 --> 01:32:35,990
well i would say a couple of things one

2650
01:32:39,510 --> 01:32:36,719
is

2651
01:32:42,310 --> 01:32:39,520
i also think that there have been

2652
01:32:43,270 --> 01:32:42,320
i'll put in quotes crashes

2653
01:32:45,750 --> 01:32:43,280
because

2654
01:32:48,950 --> 01:32:45,760
there's an equal uh argument to be made

2655
01:32:49,990 --> 01:32:48,960
that those may be giftings you know that

2656
01:32:50,709 --> 01:32:50,000
um

2657
01:32:52,709 --> 01:32:50,719
we're

2658
01:32:55,910 --> 01:32:52,719
on on surface level these look like

2659
01:32:57,990 --> 01:32:55,920
crashes but what if actually that was

2660
01:32:59,990 --> 01:32:58,000
an intentionality to make it appear like

2661
01:33:02,550 --> 01:33:00,000
a crash so that it could actually expose

2662
01:33:04,149 --> 01:33:02,560
us to different kinds of technology and

2663
01:33:06,149 --> 01:33:04,159
in terms of being able to fully

2664
01:33:07,510 --> 01:33:06,159
reproduce one and um

2665
01:33:08,870 --> 01:33:07,520
you know whether or not we're flying

2666
01:33:10,149 --> 01:33:08,880
around our own black triangles and

2667
01:33:12,149 --> 01:33:10,159
whatnot

2668
01:33:14,310 --> 01:33:12,159
yeah i think that there's been part of

2669
01:33:15,750 --> 01:33:14,320
the lore is that

2670
01:33:17,830 --> 01:33:15,760
there is a consciousness sort of

2671
01:33:20,390 --> 01:33:17,840
interface between these

2672
01:33:22,709 --> 01:33:20,400
ships right these craft and the and the

2673
01:33:24,310 --> 01:33:22,719
occupants and maybe even the that line

2674
01:33:25,590 --> 01:33:24,320
is blurred again you have to ask

2675
01:33:28,070 --> 01:33:25,600
yourself

2676
01:33:30,470 --> 01:33:28,080
if we if we have spacecraft that are now

2677
01:33:32,550 --> 01:33:30,480
have traveled beyond our solar system

2678
01:33:34,709 --> 01:33:32,560
right and a hundred years ago we were in

2679
01:33:37,270 --> 01:33:34,719
horses and buggies

2680
01:33:39,110 --> 01:33:37,280
again what does a billion years do

2681
01:33:40,229 --> 01:33:39,120
compared to 100 i mean you literally

2682
01:33:41,990 --> 01:33:40,239
can't go there there might be a

2683
01:33:45,430 --> 01:33:42,000
completely seamless

2684
01:33:46,870 --> 01:33:45,440
uh organic uh sort of like um you know

2685
01:33:49,030 --> 01:33:46,880
connection point

2686
01:33:51,270 --> 01:33:49,040
interface between a consciousness and a

2687
01:33:53,030 --> 01:33:51,280
craft and many people who've experienced

2688
01:33:54,790 --> 01:33:53,040
the ufo phenomenon sensed that these

2689
01:33:57,270 --> 01:33:54,800
things are alive in themselves the

2690
01:33:58,390 --> 01:33:57,280
crafts themselves people

2691
01:34:00,390 --> 01:33:58,400
see a

2692
01:34:01,830 --> 01:34:00,400
30 foot long craft in their front yard

2693
01:34:04,550 --> 01:34:01,840
get inside and suddenly it's the size of

2694
01:34:06,310 --> 01:34:04,560
a football stadium you know all these

2695
01:34:08,149 --> 01:34:06,320
notions we have about what reality is

2696
01:34:10,149 --> 01:34:08,159
telling us about what's really there

2697
01:34:12,070 --> 01:34:10,159
gets stretched distorted and to some

2698
01:34:14,790 --> 01:34:12,080
degree completely taken apart by this

2699
01:34:17,270 --> 01:34:14,800
phenomenon so

2700
01:34:18,709 --> 01:34:17,280
yes i think there's there's likely been

2701
01:34:20,310 --> 01:34:18,719
recovery for sure and there's been

2702
01:34:23,270 --> 01:34:20,320
attempts to uh

2703
01:34:24,550 --> 01:34:23,280
to you know retro engineer it but i i

2704
01:34:27,430 --> 01:34:24,560
don't doubt that there's all sorts of

2705
01:34:29,189 --> 01:34:27,440
roadblocks they hit because because

2706
01:34:30,830 --> 01:34:29,199
just like if a cell phone were to drop

2707
01:34:33,830 --> 01:34:30,840
in amongst amongst the bunks of

2708
01:34:35,590 --> 01:34:33,840
chimpanzees or even some early primates

2709
01:34:37,189 --> 01:34:35,600
they wouldn't know even what it was let

2710
01:34:42,070 --> 01:34:37,199
alone how to use it

2711
01:34:44,550 --> 01:34:42,080
or on francisco coronado ship i mean so

2712
01:34:46,709 --> 01:34:44,560
no i i agree with you um i'm sure

2713
01:34:48,870 --> 01:34:46,719
they've tried to back engineer and have

2714
01:34:50,149 --> 01:34:48,880
been unsuccessful and that's why i've

2715
01:34:53,189 --> 01:34:50,159
told people

2716
01:34:55,510 --> 01:34:53,199
um at least what i know about aviation

2717
01:34:58,149 --> 01:34:55,520
and the amount of time i've spent on it

2718
01:34:59,910 --> 01:34:58,159
i don't think that those the the stuff

2719
01:35:02,790 --> 01:34:59,920
that we have video evidence of like the

2720
01:35:04,870 --> 01:35:02,800
tic tac i don't believe that that is uh

2721
01:35:07,030 --> 01:35:04,880
that that's human technology or secret

2722
01:35:09,430 --> 01:35:07,040
government technology you and i have

2723
01:35:11,510 --> 01:35:09,440
never discussed it exo but

2724
01:35:14,070 --> 01:35:11,520
that's where my background is and and i

2725
01:35:15,830 --> 01:35:14,080
don't i don't believe it's human tech

2726
01:35:18,470 --> 01:35:15,840
just by the way it

2727
01:35:21,430 --> 01:35:18,480
it doesn't uh regard

2728
01:35:23,750 --> 01:35:21,440
our atmosphere and the laws of flight

2729
01:35:24,790 --> 01:35:23,760
the way that our aircraft do right i

2730
01:35:26,390 --> 01:35:24,800
mean

2731
01:35:27,910 --> 01:35:26,400
even flight in some ways is the wrong

2732
01:35:29,590 --> 01:35:27,920
term right i mean that's what's so crazy

2733
01:35:31,910 --> 01:35:29,600
about it i mean they don't they don't

2734
01:35:33,590 --> 01:35:31,920
they're not propulsed like we tend to

2735
01:35:34,629 --> 01:35:33,600
think we don't you know we use force to

2736
01:35:36,070 --> 01:35:34,639
push things through the environment

2737
01:35:38,390 --> 01:35:36,080
that's clearly not how these things are

2738
01:35:41,990 --> 01:35:38,400
operating exactly right that's exactly

2739
01:35:43,910 --> 01:35:42,000
right you got it brother um so anyway as

2740
01:35:45,510 --> 01:35:43,920
a wrap up my friend uh tell us what

2741
01:35:47,510 --> 01:35:45,520
you're working on next

2742
01:35:51,109 --> 01:35:47,520
and where folks can find you so that

2743
01:35:52,790 --> 01:35:51,119
they can engage with uh with you exo

2744
01:35:55,830 --> 01:35:52,800
yeah so um

2745
01:35:57,990 --> 01:35:55,840
they can find me uh the podcast is both

2746
01:35:59,590 --> 01:35:58,000
a youtube channel which they can find at

2747
01:36:03,510 --> 01:35:59,600
exo academia

2748
01:36:04,310 --> 01:36:03,520
um i have now gonna be episode 35 this

2749
01:36:10,390 --> 01:36:04,320
week

2750
01:36:11,350 --> 01:36:10,400
nights

2751
01:36:13,189 --> 01:36:11,360
um

2752
01:36:14,950 --> 01:36:13,199
and they can find me either on youtube

2753
01:36:17,109 --> 01:36:14,960
or on their favorite podcast platform

2754
01:36:19,109 --> 01:36:17,119
whether that's apple podcast google

2755
01:36:20,629 --> 01:36:19,119
spotify whatever it's on all the podcast

2756
01:36:22,510 --> 01:36:20,639
platforms

2757
01:36:24,470 --> 01:36:22,520
i also have a website

2758
01:36:26,470 --> 01:36:24,480
pointofconvergence.net so all one word

2759
01:36:29,430 --> 01:36:26,480
pointofconvergence.net

2760
01:36:31,669 --> 01:36:29,440
and this upcoming week will be part two

2761
01:36:33,189 --> 01:36:31,679
of my discussion of the dorothy isaac

2762
01:36:35,510 --> 01:36:33,199
case which was one of my favorites it's

2763
01:36:38,149 --> 01:36:35,520
a completely fascinating case

2764
01:36:40,629 --> 01:36:38,159
yeah i want to hear that i saw that that

2765
01:36:43,030 --> 01:36:40,639
came out and i hadn't listened to it yet

2766
01:36:46,229 --> 01:36:43,040
but now it's funny that now that you

2767
01:36:48,629 --> 01:36:46,239
told us uh uh your experience

2768
01:36:50,149 --> 01:36:48,639
with uh with the phenomenon i actually

2769
01:36:52,390 --> 01:36:50,159
remember hearing that on your program

2770
01:36:53,830 --> 01:36:52,400
now so i didn't know it was you i

2771
01:36:55,669 --> 01:36:53,840
thought maybe it was somebody else that

2772
01:36:58,070 --> 01:36:55,679
you were talking about but

2773
01:37:01,669 --> 01:36:58,080
yeah but that's great

2774
01:37:03,510 --> 01:37:01,679
uh nathan anything final for exo

2775
01:37:06,229 --> 01:37:03,520
i want to say thanks again this has been

2776
01:37:08,870 --> 01:37:06,239
an awesome chat um i think we could chat

2777
01:37:11,350 --> 01:37:08,880
for hours uh it's been just a real

2778
01:37:13,109 --> 01:37:11,360
pleasure to speak with you and i think

2779
01:37:14,870 --> 01:37:13,119
folks are gonna really enjoy listening

2780
01:37:16,790 --> 01:37:14,880
to this conversation just a lot of stuff

2781
01:37:18,550 --> 01:37:16,800
to explore and and hopefully we can uh

2782
01:37:21,270 --> 01:37:18,560
have a chance to do it again sometime so

2783
01:37:23,830 --> 01:37:21,280
thanks well i i appreciate it guys and

2784
01:37:25,910 --> 01:37:23,840
great questions i i completely concur

2785
01:37:27,750 --> 01:37:25,920
that it was a fascinating discussion i

2786
01:37:30,070 --> 01:37:27,760
like the direction of the questions

2787
01:37:32,149 --> 01:37:30,080
asking some deeper questions uh some

2788
01:37:33,830 --> 01:37:32,159
different questions that you often hear

2789
01:37:36,149 --> 01:37:33,840
uh you know voiced in these kind of

2790
01:37:37,910 --> 01:37:36,159
podcasts so that's great uh found it

2791
01:37:39,350 --> 01:37:37,920
illuminating and fun and absolutely

2792
01:37:41,510 --> 01:37:39,360
let's do it again

2793
01:37:43,430 --> 01:37:41,520
and so even as far as great questions

2794
01:37:46,580 --> 01:37:43,440
even mine does that mean absolutely

2795
01:37:49,590 --> 01:37:46,590
yours is in there too there you go

2796
01:37:51,750 --> 01:37:49,600
[Laughter]

2797
01:37:54,790 --> 01:37:51,760
all right thank you very much brother we

2798
01:37:58,229 --> 01:37:54,800
appreciate it that is exo academia

2799
01:37:59,590 --> 01:37:58,239
ladies and gentlemen we we appreciate it

2800
01:38:03,030 --> 01:37:59,600
and i'm gonna play this song called the

2801
01:38:04,629 --> 01:38:03,040
new phenomenon and take us out

2802
01:38:05,750 --> 01:38:04,639
thanks guys all right thank you brother

2803
01:38:08,229 --> 01:38:05,760
peace out

2804
01:38:12,149 --> 01:38:08,239
i'll talk to you nathan bye-bye brother

2805
01:38:19,189 --> 01:38:15,990
all right that was uh exo academia and

2806
01:38:20,629 --> 01:38:19,199
nathan at await soul on twitter

2807
01:38:22,790 --> 01:38:20,639
and uh it was a

2808
01:38:24,950 --> 01:38:22,800
fascinating conversation

2809
01:38:27,430 --> 01:38:24,960
and i hope you guys really enjoy it

2810
01:38:28,229 --> 01:38:27,440
thank you so much i think i actually

2811
01:38:29,669 --> 01:38:28,239
will

2812
01:38:31,109 --> 01:38:29,679
change the name of the podcast so i'm

2813
01:38:33,590 --> 01:38:31,119
going to consolidate them but i think

2814
01:38:35,270 --> 01:38:33,600
we're going to change this

2815
01:38:37,030 --> 01:38:35,280
ufo mma

2816
01:38:39,270 --> 01:38:37,040
i think that's going to be

2817
01:38:41,750 --> 01:38:39,280
but anyway uh we'll talk to you guys